18 July Personal Insolvency Bill: Second Stage (Resumed)
While considering the literature on this topic, I was struck in particular by the nine key principles drawn up by a number of highly reputable organisations with a strong track record and a strong commitment to working with people. I refer to organisations such as the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Focus Ireland, Threshold and Respond!, to name a few. Basically, their call is for a fair and equitable response that really gets to the heart of this issue. We live in a society and time of excessive indebtedness, courtesy of the Celtic tiger and the pressure to buy into the excesses of that time. I completely acknowledge the principle of personal responsibility for decisions that everyone, as individuals, make. I grew up at a time when money was scarce and there was a struggle to make ends meet. People saved out of extremely limited resources and bills were paid, if not on time then eventually, and it was a time when many people, particularly where I lived, did not have bank accounts. I remember the efforts of family members and friends to save for the deposit on a house, which is markedly different from the position today.
Today, one sees a society that is crippled with this excessive indebtedness and I was struck by a quote from the Governor of the Central Bank, Patrick Honohan, a few months ago, when he stated: “Not all economic crises have left as substantial a legacy of personal debt as has the current global crisis.” The organisations mentioned earlier perceive this as coming from an inability, rather than a lack of willingness, to pay on the part of those in debt. Their principles also included a call for comprehensive information to quantify the extent of the debt problem and for solutions to take into account all debt liabilities in order that they would be workable. In addition, they called for the personal insolvency legislation currently under discussion. Another principle is that the insolvent debtor should pay to the best of his or her ability for a limited time period and then for the remaining debt to be written off. Moreover, those in debt need to have someone to represent their interests when negotiations are under way because such negotiations can be extremely difficult. In addition, they need a minimum income to meet their basic needs while repaying the debts. On the latter issue of a minimum income to meet people’s basic needs, discussing basic needs is a matter of interpretation and I go along with some of the NGO organisations in this regard. They also called for the unsustainable mortgages to be recognised as such and that when repossession occurs, for appropriate housing to be provided. However, before that, which makes sense, the State should try to keep people in their homes with the ongoing mortgage or as tenants. I believe all these principles are sound and can be supported.
If one considers particular aspects of excessive indebtedness, those who cannot pay their essential living expenses and debt repayments as they arise are at the heart of the problem. Moreover, it is not just about mortgage arrears but is much broader because while I acknowledge personal responsibility, there are factors that go beyond the personal, such as unemployment, businesses collapsing and ill-health. During the so-called good days of the Celtic tiger there is no doubt that people over-extended. I can recall receiving letters through the post from banks asking whether I wanted €10,000 that day, and at one point I believe I was being offered €20,000. As for the mortgages that were on offer, they were not merely 100% mortgages with no deposit upfront. People also were asked whether they needed further capital for furniture, decking out the back or a conservatory, as the financial institution would throw in a few thousand more. While it was extremely tempting for many people to opt for instant gratification, the consequences are known. As for property portfolios, I can understand the person who bought a second property as a pension fund. However, I find it difficult to find sympathy for those who went really gung ho for X, Y or Z number of properties. In my constituency of Dublin Central, in common with other constituencies I am sure, there is a preponderance of rogue landlords, that is, property buyers who are causing untold damage to long-established communities with their disregard for all planning and environmental laws and regulations.
This constitutes one of the excesses of the Celtic tiger. Only this week, I was asked to visit a flat in the inner city, which is privately owned by a landlord. I believe I may still be in shock at the conditions in which people were living, as my dog has much better accommodation than do they. Such rogue landlords also were created by the banks because of the extent of borrowing available. The priority must be to protect the individual at the other side, whose home is under threat. The institutions, that is, the banks and financial companies, are the primary causes of the excessive indebtedness one now sees, as well as the inaction and disinterest of those who should have known better, which also was a major factor. Those who should have known better in fact were fuelling this via the tax breaks and tax incentives and by ignoring completely best economic advice, both in Ireland and abroad.
Many who are excessively indebted have lost jobs and businesses and are trying to live with considerably reduced resources. In consequence, they lack the capacity to repay loans or pay the bills or both, which is a nightmare situation. While it is one thing to come from nothing to something as a progression, to come from a lot to nothing is a completely different scenario. I have in mind areas in Dublin Central and in the inner city in which people tell me the Celtic tiger passed them by. They did not get into the excesses and did not buy the additional properties here and abroad.
5 o’clock
They did not buy big cars, go on shopping trips to New York and three and four holidays per year. They did not benefit from the Celtic tiger, but they are now suffering more owing to the economic downturn. The defunct Christmas bonus is an issue for elderly inner city residents, as that is all many of them got from the Celtic tiger and it is now gone.
The statistics show that at the end of 2010 one in ten residential mortgages was in trouble. A few months later one in nine was in trouble and a few months after that one in eight was struggling. There is still a significant number who have the ability to pay, but I know that some within this group are just about managing to repay their mortgage. We think of the property bubble when people were encouraged to buy with various inducements, not to mention the very strong media and financial institutions hype which suggested that if people did not get on the property ladder, they never would, as prices would continue to rise. People took out mortgages sometimes of over €250,000, €300,000, €400,000 and more to purchase houses and apartments that they knew were probably worth half of what they were paying. There was false advertising and incorrect advice, but who is being accountable for this? We know that those who are paying are the ones in negative equity.
The number of voluntary surrenders or abandonments in one period is greater than the number of repossessions. We know that there are long waiting lists for social housing; therefore, people have no option but to return to the rented accommodation system that I described, although I acknowledge that there are some landlords with ethical standards. Some mortgages are just unsustainable and the mortgage interest supplement could be used more effectively. Central to the issue of mortgage resolution is keeping people in their homes and avoiding placing additional pressure on the local authorities such that people avoid the nightmare that is the private rented sector. Options include availing of the mortgage to shared equity and the mortgage to rent schemes. The former involves the State purchasing a dwelling at a substantial discount from the lender and then allowing payments in instalments in such a way that the current financial situation is taken into account, as well as the option for the person concerned to buy back if and when his or her situation improves. The mortgage to rent scheme brings in the housing association or local authority and the former owner becomes a tenant paying rent that he or she can afford. I know some have reservations about this scheme. Another group which needs protection includes those tenants in buy-to-let apartments in cases where the owner-borrower is in danger of having the building repossessed.
I share the concerns of others who have spoken about the review process and think ten years is too long. It should take place sooner because so much is at stake. There will be a new body - the Insolvency Service of Ireland - with a director and staff. There will be yearly reports, strategic and business plans going to the Minister and then the Oireachtas. The director may be called before the Committee of Public Accounts, but I wonder if there is a need for the director to go before a committee when requested to do so. The name personal insolvency practitioners - PIPS - is not conducive to highlighting the serious role they will play. They will be vital in the operation of the debt resolution process. I presume they will receive extensive training and that there will be an extensive oversight procedure. The banks’ veto is of concern and I hope the insolvency service can work through it to the benefit of those in debt. Let us suppose the banks do not want to buy into this process. That is an issue that will have to be dealt with.
As the Bill is complex and the language inaccessible, I hope the people in debt will be able to understand what is available. Perhaps there is a role for FLAC and the citizens advice bureaux to play. An additional worry for some is the social welfare supports. Yesterday or today I read a press release from the European Anti-Poverty Network which highlighted the serious failure of the European Union’s 2020 strategy to promote coherent anti-poverty strategies. The quote is that there is a steady slide towards more poverty, exclusion and inequality for the majority.
I wish to be sure that the homeowners and their families who are truly in debt will be the ones who benefit most from the Bill, not those with the large investments and the property portfolios. The publication of the Irish League of Credit Unions “What’s Left” contains some interesting statistics. It states mortgages and rents continue to be the most expensive bills, followed by groceries, utility bills and transport costs. It tells us that half of all consumers struggle to pay all their bills on time, but it is very distressing to read that there are 1.82 million adults across Ireland with less than €25 left per week after they pay their bills. As reckless banking led to personal recklessness, I am not sure why we are not going down the road of calling for a financial transaction tax and going back to the idea of a Tobin tax. Such as tax could generate massive amounts of money in revenue. It would have to be done globally and simultaneously, or else we would have speculators moving to those countries with fewer tax reductions, as they do today.
During Private Members’ business last night we dealt with the Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2012 and the issue of moneylenders. There are two varieties of moneylender - licensed and unlicensed. There are problems with both and unless the banks get it right, there will be greater recourse to these moneylenders, in spite of the best efforts of the credit unions which do a great job in encouraging saving, no matter how small the amount is. For every €100 borrowed, one particular licensed moneylender charged €56 for one year. Therefore, the APR on a six month loan is 187.2%. One can only imagine what illegal moneylenders charge. From discussions with community workers and others, we know that once the moneylender moves in - licensed or unlicensed - it spreads like wildfire. People are in need of what is known as doorstep credit because there will be emergencies and they will need cash quickly, but not at what it will cost them. A major problem in parts of Dublin Central is that families are borrowing money to pay the drug debts of family members. It is vital, therefore, that people who need money and are in debt can avail of funds in an equitable way.
Any Bill has to be measured by how good it is for citizens. There is much in this Bill that is good for citizens, with a few reservations.
Today, one sees a society that is crippled with this excessive indebtedness and I was struck by a quote from the Governor of the Central Bank, Patrick Honohan, a few months ago, when he stated: “Not all economic crises have left as substantial a legacy of personal debt as has the current global crisis.” The organisations mentioned earlier perceive this as coming from an inability, rather than a lack of willingness, to pay on the part of those in debt. Their principles also included a call for comprehensive information to quantify the extent of the debt problem and for solutions to take into account all debt liabilities in order that they would be workable. In addition, they called for the personal insolvency legislation currently under discussion. Another principle is that the insolvent debtor should pay to the best of his or her ability for a limited time period and then for the remaining debt to be written off. Moreover, those in debt need to have someone to represent their interests when negotiations are under way because such negotiations can be extremely difficult. In addition, they need a minimum income to meet their basic needs while repaying the debts. On the latter issue of a minimum income to meet people’s basic needs, discussing basic needs is a matter of interpretation and I go along with some of the NGO organisations in this regard. They also called for the unsustainable mortgages to be recognised as such and that when repossession occurs, for appropriate housing to be provided. However, before that, which makes sense, the State should try to keep people in their homes with the ongoing mortgage or as tenants. I believe all these principles are sound and can be supported.
If one considers particular aspects of excessive indebtedness, those who cannot pay their essential living expenses and debt repayments as they arise are at the heart of the problem. Moreover, it is not just about mortgage arrears but is much broader because while I acknowledge personal responsibility, there are factors that go beyond the personal, such as unemployment, businesses collapsing and ill-health. During the so-called good days of the Celtic tiger there is no doubt that people over-extended. I can recall receiving letters through the post from banks asking whether I wanted €10,000 that day, and at one point I believe I was being offered €20,000. As for the mortgages that were on offer, they were not merely 100% mortgages with no deposit upfront. People also were asked whether they needed further capital for furniture, decking out the back or a conservatory, as the financial institution would throw in a few thousand more. While it was extremely tempting for many people to opt for instant gratification, the consequences are known. As for property portfolios, I can understand the person who bought a second property as a pension fund. However, I find it difficult to find sympathy for those who went really gung ho for X, Y or Z number of properties. In my constituency of Dublin Central, in common with other constituencies I am sure, there is a preponderance of rogue landlords, that is, property buyers who are causing untold damage to long-established communities with their disregard for all planning and environmental laws and regulations.
This constitutes one of the excesses of the Celtic tiger. Only this week, I was asked to visit a flat in the inner city, which is privately owned by a landlord. I believe I may still be in shock at the conditions in which people were living, as my dog has much better accommodation than do they. Such rogue landlords also were created by the banks because of the extent of borrowing available. The priority must be to protect the individual at the other side, whose home is under threat. The institutions, that is, the banks and financial companies, are the primary causes of the excessive indebtedness one now sees, as well as the inaction and disinterest of those who should have known better, which also was a major factor. Those who should have known better in fact were fuelling this via the tax breaks and tax incentives and by ignoring completely best economic advice, both in Ireland and abroad.
Many who are excessively indebted have lost jobs and businesses and are trying to live with considerably reduced resources. In consequence, they lack the capacity to repay loans or pay the bills or both, which is a nightmare situation. While it is one thing to come from nothing to something as a progression, to come from a lot to nothing is a completely different scenario. I have in mind areas in Dublin Central and in the inner city in which people tell me the Celtic tiger passed them by. They did not get into the excesses and did not buy the additional properties here and abroad.
5 o’clock
They did not buy big cars, go on shopping trips to New York and three and four holidays per year. They did not benefit from the Celtic tiger, but they are now suffering more owing to the economic downturn. The defunct Christmas bonus is an issue for elderly inner city residents, as that is all many of them got from the Celtic tiger and it is now gone.
The statistics show that at the end of 2010 one in ten residential mortgages was in trouble. A few months later one in nine was in trouble and a few months after that one in eight was struggling. There is still a significant number who have the ability to pay, but I know that some within this group are just about managing to repay their mortgage. We think of the property bubble when people were encouraged to buy with various inducements, not to mention the very strong media and financial institutions hype which suggested that if people did not get on the property ladder, they never would, as prices would continue to rise. People took out mortgages sometimes of over €250,000, €300,000, €400,000 and more to purchase houses and apartments that they knew were probably worth half of what they were paying. There was false advertising and incorrect advice, but who is being accountable for this? We know that those who are paying are the ones in negative equity.
The number of voluntary surrenders or abandonments in one period is greater than the number of repossessions. We know that there are long waiting lists for social housing; therefore, people have no option but to return to the rented accommodation system that I described, although I acknowledge that there are some landlords with ethical standards. Some mortgages are just unsustainable and the mortgage interest supplement could be used more effectively. Central to the issue of mortgage resolution is keeping people in their homes and avoiding placing additional pressure on the local authorities such that people avoid the nightmare that is the private rented sector. Options include availing of the mortgage to shared equity and the mortgage to rent schemes. The former involves the State purchasing a dwelling at a substantial discount from the lender and then allowing payments in instalments in such a way that the current financial situation is taken into account, as well as the option for the person concerned to buy back if and when his or her situation improves. The mortgage to rent scheme brings in the housing association or local authority and the former owner becomes a tenant paying rent that he or she can afford. I know some have reservations about this scheme. Another group which needs protection includes those tenants in buy-to-let apartments in cases where the owner-borrower is in danger of having the building repossessed.
I share the concerns of others who have spoken about the review process and think ten years is too long. It should take place sooner because so much is at stake. There will be a new body - the Insolvency Service of Ireland - with a director and staff. There will be yearly reports, strategic and business plans going to the Minister and then the Oireachtas. The director may be called before the Committee of Public Accounts, but I wonder if there is a need for the director to go before a committee when requested to do so. The name personal insolvency practitioners - PIPS - is not conducive to highlighting the serious role they will play. They will be vital in the operation of the debt resolution process. I presume they will receive extensive training and that there will be an extensive oversight procedure. The banks’ veto is of concern and I hope the insolvency service can work through it to the benefit of those in debt. Let us suppose the banks do not want to buy into this process. That is an issue that will have to be dealt with.
As the Bill is complex and the language inaccessible, I hope the people in debt will be able to understand what is available. Perhaps there is a role for FLAC and the citizens advice bureaux to play. An additional worry for some is the social welfare supports. Yesterday or today I read a press release from the European Anti-Poverty Network which highlighted the serious failure of the European Union’s 2020 strategy to promote coherent anti-poverty strategies. The quote is that there is a steady slide towards more poverty, exclusion and inequality for the majority.
I wish to be sure that the homeowners and their families who are truly in debt will be the ones who benefit most from the Bill, not those with the large investments and the property portfolios. The publication of the Irish League of Credit Unions “What’s Left” contains some interesting statistics. It states mortgages and rents continue to be the most expensive bills, followed by groceries, utility bills and transport costs. It tells us that half of all consumers struggle to pay all their bills on time, but it is very distressing to read that there are 1.82 million adults across Ireland with less than €25 left per week after they pay their bills. As reckless banking led to personal recklessness, I am not sure why we are not going down the road of calling for a financial transaction tax and going back to the idea of a Tobin tax. Such as tax could generate massive amounts of money in revenue. It would have to be done globally and simultaneously, or else we would have speculators moving to those countries with fewer tax reductions, as they do today.
During Private Members’ business last night we dealt with the Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2012 and the issue of moneylenders. There are two varieties of moneylender - licensed and unlicensed. There are problems with both and unless the banks get it right, there will be greater recourse to these moneylenders, in spite of the best efforts of the credit unions which do a great job in encouraging saving, no matter how small the amount is. For every €100 borrowed, one particular licensed moneylender charged €56 for one year. Therefore, the APR on a six month loan is 187.2%. One can only imagine what illegal moneylenders charge. From discussions with community workers and others, we know that once the moneylender moves in - licensed or unlicensed - it spreads like wildfire. People are in need of what is known as doorstep credit because there will be emergencies and they will need cash quickly, but not at what it will cost them. A major problem in parts of Dublin Central is that families are borrowing money to pay the drug debts of family members. It is vital, therefore, that people who need money and are in debt can avail of funds in an equitable way.
Any Bill has to be measured by how good it is for citizens. There is much in this Bill that is good for citizens, with a few reservations.
18 July Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Second and Subsequent Stages
Click to see Maureen speaking
It is appropriate that, even though they relate to the remits of two Ministers, we are debating the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2012 in advance of dealing with the Animal Health and Welfare Bill 2012. The Bill before the House is technical in nature and deals with the current hunting licence provisions relating to the shooting of wild birds and hares during open season. In the hunting of birds there is a need to put in place a protocol on the numbers of certain species hunted in order that we might monitor the impact. We must ensure changes in the level of hunting pressure are monitored and I wonder how it is proposed to do this. There is also a need to review the listed species of birds which are hunted in open season, particularly as some of these are of concern, both nationally and on an EU basis, in terms of their conservation. Wildlife in Ireland is a good indicator of the impact of environmental changes and, therefore, the question of monitoring is significant. We are aware that some species such as the breeding curlew and other breeding wader species are suffering a serious decline in numbers.
I will deal with the poor hare. I do not know what the hare has ever done to Irish society to justify the treatment meted out to it, first, as a result of many years of coursing and now by virtue of the fact that people will be able to shoot it. The Minister referred to open season which, for hares, will be five months long. However, open season for hares lasts all 12 months of the year.
My predecessor, the late Tony Gregory, was associated with a number of causes in combating illegal drugs and crime, promoting the interests of street traders and obtaining housing for people. Animal welfare was another cause central to his philosophy. It was one of his deep regrets that more had not been done to progress the issue of animal welfare before he died. In particular, he was concerned about the treatment of animals such as the hare, the fox, the badger and the stag. I am absolutely appalled to think the ban on stag hunting may be rescinded. That would be a retrograde step.
Tony Gregory was honoured to serve as vice president of the Irish Council Against Bloodsports when the late Hugh Leonard was its president. He used various mechanisms of parliamentary procedure to highlight the cause of animals and issues of cruelty. As the Minister is aware, in 1993 he sponsored a Private Members’ Bill on wildlife. When he was introducing the Bill, he paid tribute to the democratic process for allowing an Independent Member to take that course of action. He considered that wildlife was a matter of immense public concern and interest and referred to “the welfare of the vulnerable and defenceless in nature’s creation.” He hoped his Bill would help to end the “mediaeval barbarity of live hare coursing.” He acknowledged the pressure Members representing rural constituencies would be under to oppose the Bill. He also acknowledged that coursing clubs formed a very powerful lobby in some rural areas. Given that he came from Dublin Central, he was not under pressure from any lobby. However, he asked that Members be allowed to decide for themselves whether there was a need to change the cruel practice of coursing. This did not happen and, therefore, coursing was not banned in 1993. Many hares have suffered a cruel end as a result. I take the opportunity to state I object to the term “sport” being applied to coursing. There is no sport involved in either coursing or, as proposed in the Bill, shooting hares.
Tony Gregory was not the first person to try to have hare coursing banned in Ireland. The first attempt was made in November 1975 when the current President, Mr. Michael D. Higgins, then a Senator, tried to have legislation relating to wildlife being dealt with in the Upper House amended in order to have coursing declared illegal. His efforts in this regard were backed by another former President, Mrs. Mary Robinson, then a Senator, and the late Dr. Noel Browne. During the Committee Stage debate on the Wildlife Bill 1975 he stated, “My view is that the barbaric practice of hare coursing should be stopped immediately.” One of the Senators of the day who was in favour of coursing made the following comment, “There is scope for escapes. Those hares are properly trained today.” I wonder for what they were being trained. Another Member of the Upper House stated, “Coursing is fundamental to our greyhound industry.” I do not agree with that assertion. There are only three countries, including Ireland, in which coursing is legal and other countries which have banned it have thriving greyhound industries. One of the Senators to whom I refer and who was in favour of coursing also stated, “The hares are adequately and perfectly cared for, both prior to the coursing meeting concerned and afterwards.” I was bemused by the use of the word “afterwards”, particularly as the former Senator in question was speaking prior to the introduction of muzzling. In such circumstances, I am not too sure how many hares would have survived coursing meetings and required care afterwards.
Mrs. Mary Robinson said, “Coursing is a very cruel sport” and referred to “the principle of trying to prevent unnecessary and deliberate cruelty to animals.” The late Dr. Noel Browne referred to the hare as “one of the gentlest of God’s created animals” and the fact that very fast greyhounds were used to inflict “inevitably and invariably, unnecessary pain on this tiny animal.” He also described coursing as a barbaric practice. It is interesting that at the time in question the British House of Commons had just passed legislation to abolish hare coursing. As Deputies are aware, a high percentage of MPs in the House of Commons would have believed in blood sports. However, they passed an Act to ban the practice of coursing.
During the debate to which I refer the late Dr. Noel Browne commented, “Speaking as a psychiatrist, it is worth examining the kind of people who indulge in this masochistic practice.” He also wondered about the emotional make-up of those to whom he referred in the context of their enjoying “the sound of an animal screaming to death, being torn to pieces.” He associated that kind of enjoyment which what would have then been obtained in “the more disreputable night spots in Soho.” I do not think one would have to go to Soho to obtain such enjoyment nowadays because I am sure it is available much closer to home. I should note that all of the points made in the 1975 debate came prior to the Irish Coursing Club being forced to muzzle dogs at enclosed coursing meetings. The next political push to have hare coursing banned was initiated by the current Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter.
Let us consider what the supposedly humane practice of muzzling has done for the hare. About one month before each meeting club members go out into the countryside to collect hares in a process known as “netting”. This involves a gang of supporters shouting and yelling to herd hares into nets which have been strategically placed. The hares are then put into boxes for transport to the coursing venue. These are another two instances of cruelty, but the Bill does not go into much detail on this aspect. The next stage of the process involves training hares. Perhaps the animals have a better chance of survival if they are the subject of coursing rather than being pursued by hunters with guns. However, that is debatable. Releasing a wild hare into a coursing field produces what coursing supporters see as very poor sport because it would not know where to run. During the training weeks hares are kept herded together in a enclosure. This adds considerably to the stress suffered by the hares which are solitary creatures and keep to themselves in the wild. They do not live together in groups. In captivity, therefore, they are very prone to disease which can spread more easily when they are kept together in an enclosure.
As a result of the level of secrecy relating to coursing and other blood sports, it is difficult to obtain accurate statistics for them. It is also difficult to know who to believe. We are informed that on coursing days each hare should only be coursed once. However, it is important to note in this regard that coursing clubs are monitored by coursing officials, not by an independent body.
It is clear that the practice known as “blooding” is widespread. I know this for a fact because many greyhound owners state their animals must be blooded before they can take part in coursing. They use rabbits and kittens for this practice to enhance the performance of the greyhound. The owners of greyhounds who want to race their dogs on tracks must first register them with the Irish Coursing Club. This represents an enforced subsidy in respect of coursing.
The majority are opposed to hare coursing. I am sure they would also be opposed to the hunting and shooting of hares. Many independent surveys have been carried out of this matter during the years. TheJournal.ie recently carried out a poll which showed that a considerable majority were in favour of banning hare coursing until, very suddenly, the numbers of those in favour of it not being banned rose. It was at that point that the staff of TheJournal.ie discovered an attempt to rig the poll - they have proof of this - by people who were pro-coursing.
All animal welfare organisations are opposed to coursing. What, therefore, is the justification for trapping hares or any other animals and using them and their pain as a form of entertainment? There is only a small minority who get pleasure from and bet on hares fighting for their lives as they are chased and terrorised by greyhounds. The activity of coursing is one-sided and the same side always wins. Greyhounds might be muzzled, but the hares are terrorised, injured and some have died. The hare is fighting for its life and is not aware that the greyhound is muzzled. Muzzling does not prevent hares from being tossed up in the air and injured. The lucky hare that reaches the escape area without being caught by the dogs is caught in an enclosure. We do not know what happens to those hares because we do not have the figures. They probably live to fight another day. Perhaps they are released to be shot under the terms of the Bill before the House. The animal we are talking about is chased by the greyhound, which is a much bigger animal.
An Ceann Comhairle: I apologise for interrupting the Deputy, but I am obliged to inform her that she must stick to what is contained in the Bill.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Yes. I am talking about animals, including the hare.
An Ceann Comhairle: We are not talking about coursing. It is not a Bill on coursing.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Okay. I am using the opportunity-----
An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry. I just had to remind you of that.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I thank the Chair. I would like to make a point about the greyhound before I leave this issue. The greyhound is also a gentle animal. Greyhounds have also suffered particular injuries. I remind the House that a recent doping scandal involved greyhounds. In its definition of “animal welfare”, the World Organisation for Animal Health states that “an animal is in a good state of welfare if ... it is healthy, comfortable, well nourished, safe, able to express innate behaviour, and if it is not suffering from unpleasant states such as pain, fear and distress”. The Bill represents a declaration of open season for the hunting of hares, which have enough to deal with during the coursing season. I have made my point about the importance of registration in the cases of the bird species that are covered by the Bill. I will leave it at that.
I will deal with the poor hare. I do not know what the hare has ever done to Irish society to justify the treatment meted out to it, first, as a result of many years of coursing and now by virtue of the fact that people will be able to shoot it. The Minister referred to open season which, for hares, will be five months long. However, open season for hares lasts all 12 months of the year.
My predecessor, the late Tony Gregory, was associated with a number of causes in combating illegal drugs and crime, promoting the interests of street traders and obtaining housing for people. Animal welfare was another cause central to his philosophy. It was one of his deep regrets that more had not been done to progress the issue of animal welfare before he died. In particular, he was concerned about the treatment of animals such as the hare, the fox, the badger and the stag. I am absolutely appalled to think the ban on stag hunting may be rescinded. That would be a retrograde step.
Tony Gregory was honoured to serve as vice president of the Irish Council Against Bloodsports when the late Hugh Leonard was its president. He used various mechanisms of parliamentary procedure to highlight the cause of animals and issues of cruelty. As the Minister is aware, in 1993 he sponsored a Private Members’ Bill on wildlife. When he was introducing the Bill, he paid tribute to the democratic process for allowing an Independent Member to take that course of action. He considered that wildlife was a matter of immense public concern and interest and referred to “the welfare of the vulnerable and defenceless in nature’s creation.” He hoped his Bill would help to end the “mediaeval barbarity of live hare coursing.” He acknowledged the pressure Members representing rural constituencies would be under to oppose the Bill. He also acknowledged that coursing clubs formed a very powerful lobby in some rural areas. Given that he came from Dublin Central, he was not under pressure from any lobby. However, he asked that Members be allowed to decide for themselves whether there was a need to change the cruel practice of coursing. This did not happen and, therefore, coursing was not banned in 1993. Many hares have suffered a cruel end as a result. I take the opportunity to state I object to the term “sport” being applied to coursing. There is no sport involved in either coursing or, as proposed in the Bill, shooting hares.
Tony Gregory was not the first person to try to have hare coursing banned in Ireland. The first attempt was made in November 1975 when the current President, Mr. Michael D. Higgins, then a Senator, tried to have legislation relating to wildlife being dealt with in the Upper House amended in order to have coursing declared illegal. His efforts in this regard were backed by another former President, Mrs. Mary Robinson, then a Senator, and the late Dr. Noel Browne. During the Committee Stage debate on the Wildlife Bill 1975 he stated, “My view is that the barbaric practice of hare coursing should be stopped immediately.” One of the Senators of the day who was in favour of coursing made the following comment, “There is scope for escapes. Those hares are properly trained today.” I wonder for what they were being trained. Another Member of the Upper House stated, “Coursing is fundamental to our greyhound industry.” I do not agree with that assertion. There are only three countries, including Ireland, in which coursing is legal and other countries which have banned it have thriving greyhound industries. One of the Senators to whom I refer and who was in favour of coursing also stated, “The hares are adequately and perfectly cared for, both prior to the coursing meeting concerned and afterwards.” I was bemused by the use of the word “afterwards”, particularly as the former Senator in question was speaking prior to the introduction of muzzling. In such circumstances, I am not too sure how many hares would have survived coursing meetings and required care afterwards.
Mrs. Mary Robinson said, “Coursing is a very cruel sport” and referred to “the principle of trying to prevent unnecessary and deliberate cruelty to animals.” The late Dr. Noel Browne referred to the hare as “one of the gentlest of God’s created animals” and the fact that very fast greyhounds were used to inflict “inevitably and invariably, unnecessary pain on this tiny animal.” He also described coursing as a barbaric practice. It is interesting that at the time in question the British House of Commons had just passed legislation to abolish hare coursing. As Deputies are aware, a high percentage of MPs in the House of Commons would have believed in blood sports. However, they passed an Act to ban the practice of coursing.
During the debate to which I refer the late Dr. Noel Browne commented, “Speaking as a psychiatrist, it is worth examining the kind of people who indulge in this masochistic practice.” He also wondered about the emotional make-up of those to whom he referred in the context of their enjoying “the sound of an animal screaming to death, being torn to pieces.” He associated that kind of enjoyment which what would have then been obtained in “the more disreputable night spots in Soho.” I do not think one would have to go to Soho to obtain such enjoyment nowadays because I am sure it is available much closer to home. I should note that all of the points made in the 1975 debate came prior to the Irish Coursing Club being forced to muzzle dogs at enclosed coursing meetings. The next political push to have hare coursing banned was initiated by the current Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter.
Let us consider what the supposedly humane practice of muzzling has done for the hare. About one month before each meeting club members go out into the countryside to collect hares in a process known as “netting”. This involves a gang of supporters shouting and yelling to herd hares into nets which have been strategically placed. The hares are then put into boxes for transport to the coursing venue. These are another two instances of cruelty, but the Bill does not go into much detail on this aspect. The next stage of the process involves training hares. Perhaps the animals have a better chance of survival if they are the subject of coursing rather than being pursued by hunters with guns. However, that is debatable. Releasing a wild hare into a coursing field produces what coursing supporters see as very poor sport because it would not know where to run. During the training weeks hares are kept herded together in a enclosure. This adds considerably to the stress suffered by the hares which are solitary creatures and keep to themselves in the wild. They do not live together in groups. In captivity, therefore, they are very prone to disease which can spread more easily when they are kept together in an enclosure.
As a result of the level of secrecy relating to coursing and other blood sports, it is difficult to obtain accurate statistics for them. It is also difficult to know who to believe. We are informed that on coursing days each hare should only be coursed once. However, it is important to note in this regard that coursing clubs are monitored by coursing officials, not by an independent body.
It is clear that the practice known as “blooding” is widespread. I know this for a fact because many greyhound owners state their animals must be blooded before they can take part in coursing. They use rabbits and kittens for this practice to enhance the performance of the greyhound. The owners of greyhounds who want to race their dogs on tracks must first register them with the Irish Coursing Club. This represents an enforced subsidy in respect of coursing.
The majority are opposed to hare coursing. I am sure they would also be opposed to the hunting and shooting of hares. Many independent surveys have been carried out of this matter during the years. TheJournal.ie recently carried out a poll which showed that a considerable majority were in favour of banning hare coursing until, very suddenly, the numbers of those in favour of it not being banned rose. It was at that point that the staff of TheJournal.ie discovered an attempt to rig the poll - they have proof of this - by people who were pro-coursing.
All animal welfare organisations are opposed to coursing. What, therefore, is the justification for trapping hares or any other animals and using them and their pain as a form of entertainment? There is only a small minority who get pleasure from and bet on hares fighting for their lives as they are chased and terrorised by greyhounds. The activity of coursing is one-sided and the same side always wins. Greyhounds might be muzzled, but the hares are terrorised, injured and some have died. The hare is fighting for its life and is not aware that the greyhound is muzzled. Muzzling does not prevent hares from being tossed up in the air and injured. The lucky hare that reaches the escape area without being caught by the dogs is caught in an enclosure. We do not know what happens to those hares because we do not have the figures. They probably live to fight another day. Perhaps they are released to be shot under the terms of the Bill before the House. The animal we are talking about is chased by the greyhound, which is a much bigger animal.
An Ceann Comhairle: I apologise for interrupting the Deputy, but I am obliged to inform her that she must stick to what is contained in the Bill.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Yes. I am talking about animals, including the hare.
An Ceann Comhairle: We are not talking about coursing. It is not a Bill on coursing.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Okay. I am using the opportunity-----
An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry. I just had to remind you of that.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I thank the Chair. I would like to make a point about the greyhound before I leave this issue. The greyhound is also a gentle animal. Greyhounds have also suffered particular injuries. I remind the House that a recent doping scandal involved greyhounds. In its definition of “animal welfare”, the World Organisation for Animal Health states that “an animal is in a good state of welfare if ... it is healthy, comfortable, well nourished, safe, able to express innate behaviour, and if it is not suffering from unpleasant states such as pain, fear and distress”. The Bill represents a declaration of open season for the hunting of hares, which have enough to deal with during the coursing season. I have made my point about the importance of registration in the cases of the bird species that are covered by the Bill. I will leave it at that.
17 July Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2012: Second Stage [Private Members] Moneylending
There is no doubt some people value doorstep credit, even if it could have severe consequences. It has to be acknowledged there are occasions when people need to quick access to credit. Representing Dublin Central, I know moneylending of the illegal kind has been a fact of life there for many years. Going back to the days of the Monto, the largest red light district in western Europe at the time, moneylending was a feature of life.
Another feature of life in Dublin Central was that people could buy goods “on tick” from various shops. The pawn shops in the constituency used to do a roaring trade but not anymore. There is a need to acknowledge that people need money and we must ensure they can access it easily.
I am concerned, as a result of the economic recession and the number of job losses that have occurred, about people turning to moneylenders and, in particular, those which are unlicensed. Community and voluntary workers have much evidence that this is happening. Deputy Michael McGrath and others have stated these are the lenders of last resort. However, I know people for whom they are the lenders of first resort. This is because those to whom I refer are not in the habit of going to credit unions or banks. I am a strong supporter of credit unions because I am aware of the work they have done to assist people in various communities. What is great about credit unions is the tradition on which they are based, namely, that people must save in order to borrow. Credit unions accept the smallest amounts in savings. The credit union in the East Wall area in which I live is one of the oldest in the country. I know young people whose parents encouraged them to join the credit union once they began to earn a few bob. That is how the tradition of saving in order to borrow is maintained.
The banks have fallen down considerably on this matter because they provide people with little or no encouragement to invest small amounts with them. Credit is due to An Post because of the stamp systems it operates. One example in this regard is that a person can purchase a stamp each week and put it towards paying for his or her television licence when it falls due for payment. The Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, is often left to pick up the pieces when people get into difficulties.
A balance must be struck in respect of interest rates which must be capped but not to the extent that they discourage institutions from lending and thus oblige more people to turn to unlicensed moneylenders. A practice has developed whereby people borrow from moneylenders and then obtain a second loan in order to pay off the first. What is happening in this regard must be regulated in some way.
Sinn Féin hosted an interesting briefing on this issue earlier today at which reference was made to the TASC report, which indicates that the poor borrow more than the middle class and that they pay more for their loans. We are aware that some of the most dangerous moneylenders are those who would be termed “legal”. These lenders charge high interest rates on loans and fees, for insurance. In addition, they offer multiple loans. I have read a report on one licensed moneylender in which it is indicated that for every €100 borrowed for one year, the company charges €56. This means that the APR on a six month loan is 187.2%. I must emphasise that this is a licensed moneylender. One can only imagine what illegal or unlicensed moneylenders are charging for loans.
The banks currently exclude 20% of the adult population from the services they offer. We are aware that there are people who would like to have bank accounts, but they are not approached by the banks as potential customers. I came across three recent newspaper headlines which read as follows: “Middle class families secretly caught by moneylenders”; “Illegal moneylenders ‘instil fear in thousands’”; and “Caught in a trap”. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul compares moneylending to a cancer. It states that if one person in a community borrows from a moneylender, the word gets around that there is money to be had. Suddenly, everyone in the community is borrowing from a particular moneylender. People in Dublin Central have been obliged to borrow from illegal moneylenders to pay the drug debts of their family members. This has led to massive intimidation.
I will support the Bill. However, the credit unions’ suggestion the interest rate which should apply to loans from moneylenders should not exceed 25% rather than the figure of 40% put forward by Sinn Féin should be considered. After all, there are enough 'Shylocks' about the place charging exorbitant amounts of interest, etc. The banks must take on board the fact that during the Celtic tiger era they sponsored personal recklessness when it came to borrowing.
Another feature of life in Dublin Central was that people could buy goods “on tick” from various shops. The pawn shops in the constituency used to do a roaring trade but not anymore. There is a need to acknowledge that people need money and we must ensure they can access it easily.
I am concerned, as a result of the economic recession and the number of job losses that have occurred, about people turning to moneylenders and, in particular, those which are unlicensed. Community and voluntary workers have much evidence that this is happening. Deputy Michael McGrath and others have stated these are the lenders of last resort. However, I know people for whom they are the lenders of first resort. This is because those to whom I refer are not in the habit of going to credit unions or banks. I am a strong supporter of credit unions because I am aware of the work they have done to assist people in various communities. What is great about credit unions is the tradition on which they are based, namely, that people must save in order to borrow. Credit unions accept the smallest amounts in savings. The credit union in the East Wall area in which I live is one of the oldest in the country. I know young people whose parents encouraged them to join the credit union once they began to earn a few bob. That is how the tradition of saving in order to borrow is maintained.
The banks have fallen down considerably on this matter because they provide people with little or no encouragement to invest small amounts with them. Credit is due to An Post because of the stamp systems it operates. One example in this regard is that a person can purchase a stamp each week and put it towards paying for his or her television licence when it falls due for payment. The Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, is often left to pick up the pieces when people get into difficulties.
A balance must be struck in respect of interest rates which must be capped but not to the extent that they discourage institutions from lending and thus oblige more people to turn to unlicensed moneylenders. A practice has developed whereby people borrow from moneylenders and then obtain a second loan in order to pay off the first. What is happening in this regard must be regulated in some way.
Sinn Féin hosted an interesting briefing on this issue earlier today at which reference was made to the TASC report, which indicates that the poor borrow more than the middle class and that they pay more for their loans. We are aware that some of the most dangerous moneylenders are those who would be termed “legal”. These lenders charge high interest rates on loans and fees, for insurance. In addition, they offer multiple loans. I have read a report on one licensed moneylender in which it is indicated that for every €100 borrowed for one year, the company charges €56. This means that the APR on a six month loan is 187.2%. I must emphasise that this is a licensed moneylender. One can only imagine what illegal or unlicensed moneylenders are charging for loans.
The banks currently exclude 20% of the adult population from the services they offer. We are aware that there are people who would like to have bank accounts, but they are not approached by the banks as potential customers. I came across three recent newspaper headlines which read as follows: “Middle class families secretly caught by moneylenders”; “Illegal moneylenders ‘instil fear in thousands’”; and “Caught in a trap”. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul compares moneylending to a cancer. It states that if one person in a community borrows from a moneylender, the word gets around that there is money to be had. Suddenly, everyone in the community is borrowing from a particular moneylender. People in Dublin Central have been obliged to borrow from illegal moneylenders to pay the drug debts of their family members. This has led to massive intimidation.
I will support the Bill. However, the credit unions’ suggestion the interest rate which should apply to loans from moneylenders should not exceed 25% rather than the figure of 40% put forward by Sinn Féin should be considered. After all, there are enough 'Shylocks' about the place charging exorbitant amounts of interest, etc. The banks must take on board the fact that during the Celtic tiger era they sponsored personal recklessness when it came to borrowing.
10 July Constitutional Convention
Click to hear Maureen's speech
I am glad that I live in a democracy. I am always conscious when I go to vote of the many countries in the world wherein citizens do not have the right to vote or where voting is meaningless because of corruption of political institutions. Having a constitutional convention is part of the democratic process. Every citizen and civil society organisation will welcome it. It is a positive step forward.
Citizenship assemblies are seen in some countries as a pure form of democracy. There is no doubt but that voter turn-out in this country is low. This is particularly evident in certain constituencies. This low voter turn-out indicates a deficit in the democratic process. Conventions and citizens assemblies are a way forward in that they can provide the space, other than e-mail or phone call to a political representative, for voices to be heard . It is important to progress the public interest as opposed to the party or political institution interest and to give people space to voice their opinions rather than assume that the political representative or political institution has all the opinions or all the answers. We must do something about the disaffection with and disinterest in the political system and to address the lack of trust in public representation. Anything that addresses this is welcome.
I note that some political scientists believe these assemblies are not practical. However, I believe if set up properly and given specific guidelines they can work well. One of the statements in the programme for Government is that by the end of this Government’s term in office Ireland will be recognised as a modern, fair, socially inclusive and equal society. I do not think anybody would disagree with that as an objective to be realised.
I would like to raise two particular issues, the first of which is composition of the convention and the second being the issues it will discuss. As regards the chairman of the convention, it was originally proposed that such a person would be of exceptional ability and have a high degree of public acceptability, which was in my view vague and included anybody in the sporting, entertainment or cultural world. However, I note that the Taoiseach in his speech today broadened this out a little. It is important the chairman has a proven track record in chairing such an assembly. However, that decision will ultimately, I presume, rest with the Taoiseach and the Cabinet.
The convention is to comprise 66 members, which I believe is too narrow. I welcome that members will be randomly selected, which is fair. However, I presume efforts will be made to ensure a gender, age, socio-economic background, employed-unemployed, urban-rural balance and that cognisance will be taken of the Gaeltacht, island and new communities. Also, no space is provided for those under 18 years of age. As a former teacher and voluntary youth worker, I believe we are missing out on a body of people who are extremely articulate and principled and have a lot to contribute. It is hoped that space can be made for them. It is positive that the Irish abroad and in Northern Ireland are included.
While that the convention will comprise 66 members might be acceptable in itself, the fact that 33 members will be members of the Oireachtas means parliamentarians will have an inordinate influence on the convention. The convention is, therefore, disproportionately weighted in favour of parliamentarians. I agree with the civil society groups who are critical of this. One comment in this regard is that the politician in the convention should not be allowed to exert a greater influence over the process than does an ordinary citizen. We the Citizens and Second Republic hold a similar view.
The Taoiseach: By way of information, young people at home and abroad will be able to participate and give their views by way of the Internet.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I am speaking about giving them space in the convention where they would feel totally engaged and empowered by the process.
The Taoiseach: As noted by Deputy Donnelly, the convention’s proceedings will be webcast live.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Obviously, there are issues around financial and resource commitments. I heard today that all eight meetings of the convention will be held in Dublin, which will not help in terms of encouraging people to attend the process. This issue will also need to be addressed.
On the rights issue, I share the concerns of Amnesty and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties that issues such as economic, social and cultural rights are not being directly addressed. We are a leading voice on human rights issues in the developing world. We are a supporter of the Millennium Development Goals and a voice for rights in developing countries in respect of women, land, property, education and culture. We need to address these issues too. The Good Friday Agreement and so on are included for consideration. I presume the Weston Park Accord will also be included. However, prisoners with particular human rights issues in Northern Ireland are being ignored, which, too, must be addressed.
The review of the White Paper on Irish Aid was a prototype for the way forward in terms of its providing space for written submissions and the holding of open forum throughout the country, chaired by former Deputy Nora Owens, which allowed people to give their opinions and have their voices heard. It was a progressive process which could have been used in respect of the constitutional convention. The bottom line is to empower people. While I hope it does this, it is open to criticism.
Citizenship assemblies are seen in some countries as a pure form of democracy. There is no doubt but that voter turn-out in this country is low. This is particularly evident in certain constituencies. This low voter turn-out indicates a deficit in the democratic process. Conventions and citizens assemblies are a way forward in that they can provide the space, other than e-mail or phone call to a political representative, for voices to be heard . It is important to progress the public interest as opposed to the party or political institution interest and to give people space to voice their opinions rather than assume that the political representative or political institution has all the opinions or all the answers. We must do something about the disaffection with and disinterest in the political system and to address the lack of trust in public representation. Anything that addresses this is welcome.
I note that some political scientists believe these assemblies are not practical. However, I believe if set up properly and given specific guidelines they can work well. One of the statements in the programme for Government is that by the end of this Government’s term in office Ireland will be recognised as a modern, fair, socially inclusive and equal society. I do not think anybody would disagree with that as an objective to be realised.
I would like to raise two particular issues, the first of which is composition of the convention and the second being the issues it will discuss. As regards the chairman of the convention, it was originally proposed that such a person would be of exceptional ability and have a high degree of public acceptability, which was in my view vague and included anybody in the sporting, entertainment or cultural world. However, I note that the Taoiseach in his speech today broadened this out a little. It is important the chairman has a proven track record in chairing such an assembly. However, that decision will ultimately, I presume, rest with the Taoiseach and the Cabinet.
The convention is to comprise 66 members, which I believe is too narrow. I welcome that members will be randomly selected, which is fair. However, I presume efforts will be made to ensure a gender, age, socio-economic background, employed-unemployed, urban-rural balance and that cognisance will be taken of the Gaeltacht, island and new communities. Also, no space is provided for those under 18 years of age. As a former teacher and voluntary youth worker, I believe we are missing out on a body of people who are extremely articulate and principled and have a lot to contribute. It is hoped that space can be made for them. It is positive that the Irish abroad and in Northern Ireland are included.
While that the convention will comprise 66 members might be acceptable in itself, the fact that 33 members will be members of the Oireachtas means parliamentarians will have an inordinate influence on the convention. The convention is, therefore, disproportionately weighted in favour of parliamentarians. I agree with the civil society groups who are critical of this. One comment in this regard is that the politician in the convention should not be allowed to exert a greater influence over the process than does an ordinary citizen. We the Citizens and Second Republic hold a similar view.
The Taoiseach: By way of information, young people at home and abroad will be able to participate and give their views by way of the Internet.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I am speaking about giving them space in the convention where they would feel totally engaged and empowered by the process.
The Taoiseach: As noted by Deputy Donnelly, the convention’s proceedings will be webcast live.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Obviously, there are issues around financial and resource commitments. I heard today that all eight meetings of the convention will be held in Dublin, which will not help in terms of encouraging people to attend the process. This issue will also need to be addressed.
On the rights issue, I share the concerns of Amnesty and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties that issues such as economic, social and cultural rights are not being directly addressed. We are a leading voice on human rights issues in the developing world. We are a supporter of the Millennium Development Goals and a voice for rights in developing countries in respect of women, land, property, education and culture. We need to address these issues too. The Good Friday Agreement and so on are included for consideration. I presume the Weston Park Accord will also be included. However, prisoners with particular human rights issues in Northern Ireland are being ignored, which, too, must be addressed.
The review of the White Paper on Irish Aid was a prototype for the way forward in terms of its providing space for written submissions and the holding of open forum throughout the country, chaired by former Deputy Nora Owens, which allowed people to give their opinions and have their voices heard. It was a progressive process which could have been used in respect of the constitutional convention. The bottom line is to empower people. While I hope it does this, it is open to criticism.
10 July 2012 Health Service Budget: Motion
Click to hear Maureen speaking
I acknowledge the parts of the Government amendment to the motion which highlight the improvements that have been made in the health services and the challenges being faced in the health area. I will devote my short speaking time to one particular aspect which is also of importance to the Minister of State, the mental health sector. I refer to the startling statistics about the number of people with mental health issues and the very insignificant level of funding in this area. Last week, the cross-party group on mental health raised a Topical Issue Matter on mental health with the Minister of State. We raised three questions, on the status of the €35 million that had been committed for community mental health services; the date of the appointment of a director; and the commitment on the ring-fencing of staff numbers. It was a good debate and we had a good engagement with the Minister of State. She referred to the gap analysis which she had been seeking to indicate the posts needed such as social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists and the location of the nursing posts. She gave the impression there would be positive moves. We did not get an answer on the question about the director but the Minister of State provided information on the posts and the funding of €35 million. It was alarming to read in the newspapers that health spending is facing big cuts as the financial deficit hits €280 million, possibly €500 million and that there would be a review of expenditure across all headings. Most alarming is the suggestion that parts of the €35 million for mental health services would be used to offset the overruns. I ask the Minister of State to assure me on this point. There is a dire need to move on A Vision for Change so that it becomes a reality. I refer to my recent parliamentary question to the Minister of State on the matter of the parents of an 18 year-old son with intellectual disability who relies on services from the HSE through the Brothers of Charity and these have been affected by the cuts. There is a need for appropriate services for people with intellectual disabilities who leave school. The HSE has identified approximately 650 school-leavers who will require services in 2012.
The issue of drugs made the headlines at the weekend because of events in the Phoenix Park. We know the problems of polydrug use and alcohol and yet the funding is being cut to the drugs task force projects and they are left in dire straits when dealing with those issues.
The issue of drugs made the headlines at the weekend because of events in the Phoenix Park. We know the problems of polydrug use and alcohol and yet the funding is being cut to the drugs task force projects and they are left in dire straits when dealing with those issues.
04 July Protection of Schools Education Bill Private Members' Motion
Click to hear Maureen speech in full
Some months ago, in response to a Topical Issue debate on education, the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, pointed out that, “On numerous occasions in recent months, both the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, have stressed that on their watch no rural school will be forced to close or amalgamate without the express wish of the local community involved”. I note from the communities that they have no wish to see their local schools closed or amalgamated.
A spread-of-population issue arises for many of the schools that are covered by the proposed Bill, especially in regard to schools in certain rural areas and on the islands. However, they must not be penalised for that. The Bill simply asks that all reasonable provision be made to ensure the continued operation of the schools in the event of their attendance levels declining. An important point arises regarding the use of the demographic trends established in the last census of population. There was an interesting presentation this morning on the census. The facts are all available.
We do not want to go to the other extreme, namely, oversupplying schools built solely for political gain in certain areas. Small schools have had a better pupil-teacher ratio but this must be balanced with the challenge of teaching students of varying ages in the one classroom. Our national schools comprise the first real steps on the formal education ladder. Mar a deireann an seanfhocal, “Tús maith, leath na hoibre”. A good start is vital for everyone, regardless of whether one lives in an area of high population density or an isolated rural area with pupil numbers in single figures. Quality of education and equality of access are vital for everyone.
There is no doubt that smaller schools are in danger. The budget cuts and the cuts to expenditure in education are increasing the difficulties for all schools, but there are some schools that can manage a little better than others. Smaller schools are in a different arena. The cuts to smaller schools could make circumstances so difficult for them that they would be forced to close, with disastrous consequences for their communities. Small schools do work and this can be seen from reports of the Department of Education and Skills following assessment and inspections. The most recent departmental inspectorate’s report found no significant relationship between school size and the quality of teaching, learning and assessment in schools. The Minister himself stated small schools are an important part of the social fabric of rural communities, and we do not want to see further unravelling of that fabric.
The small schools value-for-money review is still pending. I agree with the INTO’s call for a forum after the publication of the report to discuss it and produce a strategy for small schools. I suggest the random selection of principals, teachers and parents to engage in the discussion.
In practical terms, fewer schools will mean longer periods of travel for some pupils and significant increases in the cost of travel. However, we know there is more to the closure of a small school than the loss of the school itself. I am from the city and, like many Dubliners, have a great grá for rural areas. I was very supportive of the rural resettlement scheme and was delighted to see families from Dublin moving to the country. Part of the attraction was moving to a small community with a small school. We know the Celtic tiger created sprawling housing estates with few or no resources and massive demand in certain schools. There are schools in urban areas bursting at the seams and schools in some rural areas losing numbers but we must strike a balance and take account of this.
Glacann scoileanna Gaeltachta agus scoileanna ar oileáin sa Ghaeltacht páirt riachtannach agus ríthábhachtach maidir leis an teanga a spreagadh agus a chur chun cinn. One final point about island schools, which comes from a friend of mine who has been an island principal for over 35 years, is that a two teacher minimum is vital if the curriculum is to be covered adequately and satisfactorily. There should be full facilities and fast Internet access comparable to standards on the mainland because island parents have no other choice. The local school, it must be stressed, nurtures the local culture and traditions of the area. She stated the school is the heartbeat of any small community and young families will not settle in the island communities unless their children are guaranteed high standards comparable to those of the mainland schools. Her last point was that if we deprive the island parents of this, we ring the death knell of our island communities.
A spread-of-population issue arises for many of the schools that are covered by the proposed Bill, especially in regard to schools in certain rural areas and on the islands. However, they must not be penalised for that. The Bill simply asks that all reasonable provision be made to ensure the continued operation of the schools in the event of their attendance levels declining. An important point arises regarding the use of the demographic trends established in the last census of population. There was an interesting presentation this morning on the census. The facts are all available.
We do not want to go to the other extreme, namely, oversupplying schools built solely for political gain in certain areas. Small schools have had a better pupil-teacher ratio but this must be balanced with the challenge of teaching students of varying ages in the one classroom. Our national schools comprise the first real steps on the formal education ladder. Mar a deireann an seanfhocal, “Tús maith, leath na hoibre”. A good start is vital for everyone, regardless of whether one lives in an area of high population density or an isolated rural area with pupil numbers in single figures. Quality of education and equality of access are vital for everyone.
There is no doubt that smaller schools are in danger. The budget cuts and the cuts to expenditure in education are increasing the difficulties for all schools, but there are some schools that can manage a little better than others. Smaller schools are in a different arena. The cuts to smaller schools could make circumstances so difficult for them that they would be forced to close, with disastrous consequences for their communities. Small schools do work and this can be seen from reports of the Department of Education and Skills following assessment and inspections. The most recent departmental inspectorate’s report found no significant relationship between school size and the quality of teaching, learning and assessment in schools. The Minister himself stated small schools are an important part of the social fabric of rural communities, and we do not want to see further unravelling of that fabric.
The small schools value-for-money review is still pending. I agree with the INTO’s call for a forum after the publication of the report to discuss it and produce a strategy for small schools. I suggest the random selection of principals, teachers and parents to engage in the discussion.
In practical terms, fewer schools will mean longer periods of travel for some pupils and significant increases in the cost of travel. However, we know there is more to the closure of a small school than the loss of the school itself. I am from the city and, like many Dubliners, have a great grá for rural areas. I was very supportive of the rural resettlement scheme and was delighted to see families from Dublin moving to the country. Part of the attraction was moving to a small community with a small school. We know the Celtic tiger created sprawling housing estates with few or no resources and massive demand in certain schools. There are schools in urban areas bursting at the seams and schools in some rural areas losing numbers but we must strike a balance and take account of this.
Glacann scoileanna Gaeltachta agus scoileanna ar oileáin sa Ghaeltacht páirt riachtannach agus ríthábhachtach maidir leis an teanga a spreagadh agus a chur chun cinn. One final point about island schools, which comes from a friend of mine who has been an island principal for over 35 years, is that a two teacher minimum is vital if the curriculum is to be covered adequately and satisfactorily. There should be full facilities and fast Internet access comparable to standards on the mainland because island parents have no other choice. The local school, it must be stressed, nurtures the local culture and traditions of the area. She stated the school is the heartbeat of any small community and young families will not settle in the island communities unless their children are guaranteed high standards comparable to those of the mainland schools. Her last point was that if we deprive the island parents of this, we ring the death knell of our island communities.
04 July Topical Issues Mental Health Services
Click to hear debate on Mental Health
Deputies Simon Harris, Robert Troy, Maureen O’Sullivan and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin - raised the status of the €35 million committed in respect of community mental health services, the appointment of a director for mental health and the ring-fencing of staff for community mental health teams;
This matter was selected for discussion. Wednesday, July 04, 2012 5:30 PM 232206246
Deputy Simon Harris: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for coming to the House for this debate. It is great to have in the House the Minister with direct responsibility for this matter. I raise this issue alongside my colleagues, Deputies Robert Troy and Maureen O’Sullivan, two co-convenors of the cross-party Oireachtas group on mental health. Deputy Ó Caoláin, whose name is also associated with this Topical Issue matter, has asked us to place on record his regret that he cannot be present as he is attending an all-day meeting at Stormont. He wishes to be strongly associated with the matter raised. The other convenor of the cross-party group is Senator Susan O’Keeffe, who is, obviously, a Member of the other House.
That members of all political groupings in both Houses have come together on this issue demonstrates the importance parliamentarians attach to mental health. We are unique in being the only cross-party group with representatives of all political groupings in the Oireachtas which has drawn up and presented to Government a pre-budget submission. The group is pleased with the Government’s commitment to provide €35 million in the previous budget for community mental health services.
The cross-party group seeks to achieve three outcomes from this Topical Debate. First, we wish to obtain an update on the status of the €35 million committed in the budget for community mental health services. Second, we wish to obtain from the Minister of State an update on the appointment of a director of mental health. Third, we seek a commitment on the ring-fencing of staff for community mental health teams.
All those involved in politics and society generally are used to mental health being treated as the poor relation of the health service. In the past, money allocated to mental health was siphoned off into different areas of the health service as the year proceeded. While this is clearly not the intention of the Minister, Government or House, we need an assurance that this practice will not occur this year and the commitments provided will be met.
Community-based mental health services are at the core of A Vision of Change. This strategy recommends shifting care from mental health institutions to the community and envisaged specialist services operated by staff with particular expertise in supporting a person’s mental health. It seeks to bring together a holistic range of support and staff from a range of specialist disciplines, including clinical psychology, mental health nursing, occupational therapy, psychiatry and social work. There is no doubt that community-based mental health services are the correct approach. There is now a political consensus and compelling economic argument for this model. The Health Service Executive, for example, recently launched a report which showed that the community model of mental health services is the best way to achieve a good quality and cost-effective service. In addition to being the right approach, it is also cost effective.
Deputy Robert Troy: I add my voice to the sentiments expressed by Deputy Simon Harris. I acknowledge the work done by the previous Government in this regard. The Minister of State’s predecessor launched the document, A Vision for Change, and I am pleased the strategy has been adopted and is being acted on.
In the past decade, the number of people resident in psychiatric units has declined by 33%. The special allocation of €35 million towards community mental health services in the 2012 budget was a welcome development. As Deputy Harris noted, we are seeking clarity on precisely where and how the €35 million has been or will be spent. While I do not doubt the Minister of State’s commitment to mental health, action is required, including on the recruitment of the 414 professionals promised for community health services, none of whom had been employed as of several weeks ago. This is disappointing considering we are halfway through 2012.
At a time when many people under financial and emotional strain are presenting at general practitioners, it is necessary to have in place appropriate services to which GPs may refer people who are suffering and allow them to receive a proper diagnosis. Many people are engaging in deliberate self-harm, which is an issue that requires a more holistic approach. We must ensure proper professionals such as social workers and psychologists are available in communities to ensure those who require care receive it. I look forward to the Minister of State’s reply.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Reading the programme for Government, I was struck by the following commitment: “We will ring fence €35m annually from within the health budget to develop community mental health teams and services as outlined in A Vision for Change to ensure early access to more appropriate services for adults and children and improved integration with primary care services.” Speaking during an excellent debate on a Private Members’ motion when many Members spoke from their hearts, the Minister of State noted strong similarities between A Vision for Change and a previous document, Planning for the Future, which was produced in 1984 when Mr. Barry Desmond was the Minister with responsibility for health. It is time to move beyond similarities and implement the programme set out in A Vision for Change.
At the time, the Minister of State herself noted it is not as though we do not know what needs to be done because we do. This is the point behind this Topical Issue. It is from all parties and none because I represent the Technical Group and Independent Members. Its purpose is to ascertain what is happening regarding the €35 million, the director - who will be vital to direct the service - and the ring-fencing of the staff for the community mental health teams. It remains the case that one in four people will have a mental health issue but this is not represented by the budget for mental health, which is still just over 5% of the total. Another interesting statistic is that 50% of adults diagnosed with a mental health disorder may have developed that disorder by the age of 14 and 75% of those so diagnosed will have developed it by the age of 24. The entire point is for early intervention, if for no other reason than from an economic point of view, much more will be saved. Moreover, so doing would prevent those families and individuals from experiencing the distress through which they are going.
Deputy Kathleen Lynch:I thank the four Deputies who added their names to this Topical Issue matter and the three who spoke on it. I am reluctant to read the prepared answer because if I do not know about mental health and what is being done with the aforementioned €35 million by now, I should not be here at all.
To take up Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan’s final point, the gap between the publication of Barry Desmond’s Planning for the Future report in 1984 and the appearance of the A Vision for Change framework in 2006 is unforgivable. It is a gap through which many people have fallen and is unforgivable. I will revert to this point later because I do not intend for such a gap ever again to exist, which is important. To a great extent, the A Vision for Change framework is a chart or table showing what is needed in community care and one must ensure it is fulfilled and carried forward. The Government’s job concerns those posts and teams, as well as deciding what the present Administration will do with the money. In addition, the Government must begin to put in place a particular element to take us into the future beyond A Vision for Change. If the teams are in place, what will they be expected to deliver? I acknowledge I am jumping the gun slightly in this regard but Members must keep this point in mind. The Members who spoke have a particular interest in this subject and I reiterate this must be done.
Heretofore, on foot of a vote for a health budget in this Chamber and the putting in place of such a budget, it was divided up depending on the demographics and the population base and sent down to the four health regions. In the main, it was spent wisely. It was not the job of the Government to do this and those with responsibility to so do took it on and discharged it. However, an entirely different approach was taken in respect of the €35 million. As soon as it was announced, the usual e-mails were received in which people asked for their usual portion of the funds to be sent to them to enable them to decide what to do with it. However, they were informed this was not what was intended. Instead, a gap analysis was sought from them that would indicate where were the needed posts, how many psychologists, social workers and psychiatrists were required, as well as the location of the nursing posts that were required. This process has only been completed in recent weeks and it was only then that I signed off on what was to be delivered.
I listened to Deputy Troy asking where was the €35 million and metaphorically, it is in my back pocket. I still have the money, it still exists and it remains within the Department. However, the aforementioned personnel are now being recruited from existing panels that had been put together over the years and people now are being drawn from them. A difficulty arose in respect of psychologists because as Members will be aware, some panels were not sufficient and ran out of candidates. Consequently, it will be necessary to begin to re-interview in this respect. However, this will not be an issue because there is a sufficient number of qualified people operating in the private sector to do this and they can come over and work for the Government. A particular issue arose in respect of the Dublin mid-Leinster region, where those responsible did exactly what the A Vision for Change framework specified they should do in respect of beds and teams. However, the region then fell below the bar because of the exodus in February and March and it was necessary to convert some of the posts there to nursing staff because nurses are crucial in all this. The HSE has now managed to do that and I am about to sign off on the agreement in that area. Consequently, the four regions will have their teams, of which there will be 90 and the population-base will be 50,000 people per team. The teams will be put in place and this is being done as I speak. I would have loved for it to have been possible to do this last February but as I stated, this would simply have entailed splitting up the budget and sending it out to the regions and this was not considered to be appropriate. The Government is being extremely careful in this regard and this is how it is implementing this process.
There are obvious gaps in respect of things that were not done this year. I have been speaking to those involved and they are happy that these areas will be a matter of priority next year. I refer to old age psychiatry, intellectual disability and forensics. These are the areas that must be prioritised next year but this is not to suggest posts will not be made available next year to increase the size of teams in certain areas. This year, for instance, the Department is establishing 150 new posts in the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, because it was known that a deficit existed in that regard. Those concerned informed the Department of the size of the deficit and of the requirements. As a result, 150 new posts were established and they are very happy with that. Similarly, 250 new posts have been established in respect of adult psychiatry and ten additional posts have been allocated to the national counselling service, which also was a commitment in the programme for Government.
I am very conscious that the budget for mental health services is never what one would wish it to be. However, I am equally convinced that if one spends one’s budget well in a directed and particular way, one will get a greater service. I acknowledge I have gone slightly over time and did not mean to so do but I make the point that the gap between Planning for the Future and A Vision for Change must never be allowed to happen again. Consequently, we must start putting in place a group now that will look beyond the A Vision for Change strategy. Now the teams are in place, such a group should consider what they are expected to deliver and what is the service. The A Vision for Change framework was really about the table of requirements. I do not know what will happen next as I simply will be the person who will put in place the team. Hopefully, depending on its expertise and vision regarding what lies beyond A Vision for Change, that team will take it forward. Moreover, the Government is seriously contemplating putting into legislation the obligation to have such ongoing reviews and development.
Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan): The Deputies who raised the matter now have one minute each for supplementary questions.
Deputy Simon Harris: I thank the Minister of State. Her ability to speak without a script and at such length about her brief demonstrates the passion she has for the area, which is greatly appreciated. I now am much happier that the money is in the Minister of State’s metaphorical back pocket, rather than siphoned off to God knows where within the HSE, which is reassuring. The commitment was to spend it in 2012 and if it is spent in that year, the commitment will have been met. I also am happy the reply circulated to Members refers to the legislative plans for the establishment of the directorate of mental health, which will be an important development.
While the Minister of State is in the Chamber, I wish to make one point in respect of the issue of community and education, because I have raised it in another Topical Issue debate previously and the cross-party group has done a lot on it. Moreover, the group had the Oireachtas Library and Research Service produce a report on how mental health is taught in schools. If mental health services are being brought into the community, which is a welcome step, one must tackle the ignorance within our school and education systems when it comes to teaching mental health and adopting a whole-school approach to mental health. There are much better examples but when I have raised this issue with the Minister for Education and Skills and the Ministers of State in that Department, the standard response is everything is all right because the SPHE programme is in place. However, this is not the case. Children are taught from the age of four in junior infants classes about dental health. They are taught about brushing one’s teeth daily and not being embarrassed if one has toothache. However, pupils are not spoken to about mental health until they are 15 and then it is done in a highly wishy-washy fashion. Having made that point, I thank the Minister of State for her reply.
Deputy Robert Troy: I thank the Minister of State for her reply. As she quite correctly stated, the time for talking is over. The A Vision for Change document has been available since 2006 and it is appropriate that action should be taken on it as six years have elapsed. Much work has been done and I cited figures earlier on the number of people who have moved out of institutional care into the community. Nevertheless, while I do not doubt the Minister of State’s commitment to the mental health brief, six months have passed since the last budget. While the €35 million is welcome, I note it remains within the Minister of State’s back pocket. I would much rather see it being spent in the community.
Many people who are suffering from mental health issues are presenting themselves every day to their local GPs and many others do not know where to go to get the appropriate action. The board of the HSE was abolished with great fanfare last year and still we wait on the direct position to be established for mental health. There is too much of a delay, and while that is not always the responsibility of the Minister of State as things can be tied up in bureaucracy, I urge her to push ahead to deliver the 414 professional places to the community mental health services and to get the money out of her back pocket and into the community.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: There is absolutely no doubting the Minister of State’s long-standing commitment to and support for mental health, but it is time we stopped using the future tense on what we will do and use the past tense on what we have done. Would it not make more sense to appoint the director to manage all of these new initiatives? I would also like to call for the nursing course on intellectual disability to be retained. There is a need for those very specific skills required to work with people with intellectual disabilities. I understand there are talks about merging these courses which I think would be harmful.
We cannot talk about mental health without mentioning our late good friend, John McCarthy. When he spoke about the normality of madness, I think we have to push for the normality of the services. If I fall down and break my leg, it is quite normal and I can go to an accident and emergency department. If I have suicidal tendencies, if I feel I am having a breakdown or suffering depression, there is nothing normal about where I will go. Apart from not knowing where to go, there is also a stigma about it. That is a major objective that we must realise.
Deputy Kathleen Lynch: We are developing a whole-school approach for the emotional well-being of young children and how they feel about themselves. It is a different approach and we have to be very careful about it, because we do not want to emphasise that it is a negative thing. It must always be about something very positive and how one feels about oneself and about others. Mr. Tony Bates is developing that for us for secondary schools, but I would rather we started earlier. Children are quite capable of articulating their emotional feelings from a very young age.
In answer to Deputy Troy, we could have spent the money very early on in the year, but my fear was that it would get lost in the usual abyss. We were very careful about that. We would have loved to spend it earlier. We are now spending it in a much more targeted and better way. We will have to change our thinking about how we do things in the future and this is one area in which we have been very careful. There were no problems with the bureaucrats. In fact, they were very helpful in this case.
Deputy O’Sullivan is quite right. The normalisation of mental health as part of the overall health structure is the ultimate aim. We will be able to say next year what we have done, but we also need to ensure we are constantly progressing. We would never say we are finished dealing with cancer or cardiac care and that there will be no more progress. We cannot afford to say that about mental health either. We must be always progressing our thinking, our delivery and how people access services. That kind of focused attention is what will provide us a service that will be as normal as the service provided when somebody breaks a leg.
This matter was selected for discussion. Wednesday, July 04, 2012 5:30 PM 232206246
Deputy Simon Harris: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for coming to the House for this debate. It is great to have in the House the Minister with direct responsibility for this matter. I raise this issue alongside my colleagues, Deputies Robert Troy and Maureen O’Sullivan, two co-convenors of the cross-party Oireachtas group on mental health. Deputy Ó Caoláin, whose name is also associated with this Topical Issue matter, has asked us to place on record his regret that he cannot be present as he is attending an all-day meeting at Stormont. He wishes to be strongly associated with the matter raised. The other convenor of the cross-party group is Senator Susan O’Keeffe, who is, obviously, a Member of the other House.
That members of all political groupings in both Houses have come together on this issue demonstrates the importance parliamentarians attach to mental health. We are unique in being the only cross-party group with representatives of all political groupings in the Oireachtas which has drawn up and presented to Government a pre-budget submission. The group is pleased with the Government’s commitment to provide €35 million in the previous budget for community mental health services.
The cross-party group seeks to achieve three outcomes from this Topical Debate. First, we wish to obtain an update on the status of the €35 million committed in the budget for community mental health services. Second, we wish to obtain from the Minister of State an update on the appointment of a director of mental health. Third, we seek a commitment on the ring-fencing of staff for community mental health teams.
All those involved in politics and society generally are used to mental health being treated as the poor relation of the health service. In the past, money allocated to mental health was siphoned off into different areas of the health service as the year proceeded. While this is clearly not the intention of the Minister, Government or House, we need an assurance that this practice will not occur this year and the commitments provided will be met.
Community-based mental health services are at the core of A Vision of Change. This strategy recommends shifting care from mental health institutions to the community and envisaged specialist services operated by staff with particular expertise in supporting a person’s mental health. It seeks to bring together a holistic range of support and staff from a range of specialist disciplines, including clinical psychology, mental health nursing, occupational therapy, psychiatry and social work. There is no doubt that community-based mental health services are the correct approach. There is now a political consensus and compelling economic argument for this model. The Health Service Executive, for example, recently launched a report which showed that the community model of mental health services is the best way to achieve a good quality and cost-effective service. In addition to being the right approach, it is also cost effective.
Deputy Robert Troy: I add my voice to the sentiments expressed by Deputy Simon Harris. I acknowledge the work done by the previous Government in this regard. The Minister of State’s predecessor launched the document, A Vision for Change, and I am pleased the strategy has been adopted and is being acted on.
In the past decade, the number of people resident in psychiatric units has declined by 33%. The special allocation of €35 million towards community mental health services in the 2012 budget was a welcome development. As Deputy Harris noted, we are seeking clarity on precisely where and how the €35 million has been or will be spent. While I do not doubt the Minister of State’s commitment to mental health, action is required, including on the recruitment of the 414 professionals promised for community health services, none of whom had been employed as of several weeks ago. This is disappointing considering we are halfway through 2012.
At a time when many people under financial and emotional strain are presenting at general practitioners, it is necessary to have in place appropriate services to which GPs may refer people who are suffering and allow them to receive a proper diagnosis. Many people are engaging in deliberate self-harm, which is an issue that requires a more holistic approach. We must ensure proper professionals such as social workers and psychologists are available in communities to ensure those who require care receive it. I look forward to the Minister of State’s reply.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Reading the programme for Government, I was struck by the following commitment: “We will ring fence €35m annually from within the health budget to develop community mental health teams and services as outlined in A Vision for Change to ensure early access to more appropriate services for adults and children and improved integration with primary care services.” Speaking during an excellent debate on a Private Members’ motion when many Members spoke from their hearts, the Minister of State noted strong similarities between A Vision for Change and a previous document, Planning for the Future, which was produced in 1984 when Mr. Barry Desmond was the Minister with responsibility for health. It is time to move beyond similarities and implement the programme set out in A Vision for Change.
At the time, the Minister of State herself noted it is not as though we do not know what needs to be done because we do. This is the point behind this Topical Issue. It is from all parties and none because I represent the Technical Group and Independent Members. Its purpose is to ascertain what is happening regarding the €35 million, the director - who will be vital to direct the service - and the ring-fencing of the staff for the community mental health teams. It remains the case that one in four people will have a mental health issue but this is not represented by the budget for mental health, which is still just over 5% of the total. Another interesting statistic is that 50% of adults diagnosed with a mental health disorder may have developed that disorder by the age of 14 and 75% of those so diagnosed will have developed it by the age of 24. The entire point is for early intervention, if for no other reason than from an economic point of view, much more will be saved. Moreover, so doing would prevent those families and individuals from experiencing the distress through which they are going.
Deputy Kathleen Lynch:I thank the four Deputies who added their names to this Topical Issue matter and the three who spoke on it. I am reluctant to read the prepared answer because if I do not know about mental health and what is being done with the aforementioned €35 million by now, I should not be here at all.
To take up Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan’s final point, the gap between the publication of Barry Desmond’s Planning for the Future report in 1984 and the appearance of the A Vision for Change framework in 2006 is unforgivable. It is a gap through which many people have fallen and is unforgivable. I will revert to this point later because I do not intend for such a gap ever again to exist, which is important. To a great extent, the A Vision for Change framework is a chart or table showing what is needed in community care and one must ensure it is fulfilled and carried forward. The Government’s job concerns those posts and teams, as well as deciding what the present Administration will do with the money. In addition, the Government must begin to put in place a particular element to take us into the future beyond A Vision for Change. If the teams are in place, what will they be expected to deliver? I acknowledge I am jumping the gun slightly in this regard but Members must keep this point in mind. The Members who spoke have a particular interest in this subject and I reiterate this must be done.
Heretofore, on foot of a vote for a health budget in this Chamber and the putting in place of such a budget, it was divided up depending on the demographics and the population base and sent down to the four health regions. In the main, it was spent wisely. It was not the job of the Government to do this and those with responsibility to so do took it on and discharged it. However, an entirely different approach was taken in respect of the €35 million. As soon as it was announced, the usual e-mails were received in which people asked for their usual portion of the funds to be sent to them to enable them to decide what to do with it. However, they were informed this was not what was intended. Instead, a gap analysis was sought from them that would indicate where were the needed posts, how many psychologists, social workers and psychiatrists were required, as well as the location of the nursing posts that were required. This process has only been completed in recent weeks and it was only then that I signed off on what was to be delivered.
I listened to Deputy Troy asking where was the €35 million and metaphorically, it is in my back pocket. I still have the money, it still exists and it remains within the Department. However, the aforementioned personnel are now being recruited from existing panels that had been put together over the years and people now are being drawn from them. A difficulty arose in respect of psychologists because as Members will be aware, some panels were not sufficient and ran out of candidates. Consequently, it will be necessary to begin to re-interview in this respect. However, this will not be an issue because there is a sufficient number of qualified people operating in the private sector to do this and they can come over and work for the Government. A particular issue arose in respect of the Dublin mid-Leinster region, where those responsible did exactly what the A Vision for Change framework specified they should do in respect of beds and teams. However, the region then fell below the bar because of the exodus in February and March and it was necessary to convert some of the posts there to nursing staff because nurses are crucial in all this. The HSE has now managed to do that and I am about to sign off on the agreement in that area. Consequently, the four regions will have their teams, of which there will be 90 and the population-base will be 50,000 people per team. The teams will be put in place and this is being done as I speak. I would have loved for it to have been possible to do this last February but as I stated, this would simply have entailed splitting up the budget and sending it out to the regions and this was not considered to be appropriate. The Government is being extremely careful in this regard and this is how it is implementing this process.
There are obvious gaps in respect of things that were not done this year. I have been speaking to those involved and they are happy that these areas will be a matter of priority next year. I refer to old age psychiatry, intellectual disability and forensics. These are the areas that must be prioritised next year but this is not to suggest posts will not be made available next year to increase the size of teams in certain areas. This year, for instance, the Department is establishing 150 new posts in the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, because it was known that a deficit existed in that regard. Those concerned informed the Department of the size of the deficit and of the requirements. As a result, 150 new posts were established and they are very happy with that. Similarly, 250 new posts have been established in respect of adult psychiatry and ten additional posts have been allocated to the national counselling service, which also was a commitment in the programme for Government.
I am very conscious that the budget for mental health services is never what one would wish it to be. However, I am equally convinced that if one spends one’s budget well in a directed and particular way, one will get a greater service. I acknowledge I have gone slightly over time and did not mean to so do but I make the point that the gap between Planning for the Future and A Vision for Change must never be allowed to happen again. Consequently, we must start putting in place a group now that will look beyond the A Vision for Change strategy. Now the teams are in place, such a group should consider what they are expected to deliver and what is the service. The A Vision for Change framework was really about the table of requirements. I do not know what will happen next as I simply will be the person who will put in place the team. Hopefully, depending on its expertise and vision regarding what lies beyond A Vision for Change, that team will take it forward. Moreover, the Government is seriously contemplating putting into legislation the obligation to have such ongoing reviews and development.
Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan): The Deputies who raised the matter now have one minute each for supplementary questions.
Deputy Simon Harris: I thank the Minister of State. Her ability to speak without a script and at such length about her brief demonstrates the passion she has for the area, which is greatly appreciated. I now am much happier that the money is in the Minister of State’s metaphorical back pocket, rather than siphoned off to God knows where within the HSE, which is reassuring. The commitment was to spend it in 2012 and if it is spent in that year, the commitment will have been met. I also am happy the reply circulated to Members refers to the legislative plans for the establishment of the directorate of mental health, which will be an important development.
While the Minister of State is in the Chamber, I wish to make one point in respect of the issue of community and education, because I have raised it in another Topical Issue debate previously and the cross-party group has done a lot on it. Moreover, the group had the Oireachtas Library and Research Service produce a report on how mental health is taught in schools. If mental health services are being brought into the community, which is a welcome step, one must tackle the ignorance within our school and education systems when it comes to teaching mental health and adopting a whole-school approach to mental health. There are much better examples but when I have raised this issue with the Minister for Education and Skills and the Ministers of State in that Department, the standard response is everything is all right because the SPHE programme is in place. However, this is not the case. Children are taught from the age of four in junior infants classes about dental health. They are taught about brushing one’s teeth daily and not being embarrassed if one has toothache. However, pupils are not spoken to about mental health until they are 15 and then it is done in a highly wishy-washy fashion. Having made that point, I thank the Minister of State for her reply.
Deputy Robert Troy: I thank the Minister of State for her reply. As she quite correctly stated, the time for talking is over. The A Vision for Change document has been available since 2006 and it is appropriate that action should be taken on it as six years have elapsed. Much work has been done and I cited figures earlier on the number of people who have moved out of institutional care into the community. Nevertheless, while I do not doubt the Minister of State’s commitment to the mental health brief, six months have passed since the last budget. While the €35 million is welcome, I note it remains within the Minister of State’s back pocket. I would much rather see it being spent in the community.
Many people who are suffering from mental health issues are presenting themselves every day to their local GPs and many others do not know where to go to get the appropriate action. The board of the HSE was abolished with great fanfare last year and still we wait on the direct position to be established for mental health. There is too much of a delay, and while that is not always the responsibility of the Minister of State as things can be tied up in bureaucracy, I urge her to push ahead to deliver the 414 professional places to the community mental health services and to get the money out of her back pocket and into the community.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: There is absolutely no doubting the Minister of State’s long-standing commitment to and support for mental health, but it is time we stopped using the future tense on what we will do and use the past tense on what we have done. Would it not make more sense to appoint the director to manage all of these new initiatives? I would also like to call for the nursing course on intellectual disability to be retained. There is a need for those very specific skills required to work with people with intellectual disabilities. I understand there are talks about merging these courses which I think would be harmful.
We cannot talk about mental health without mentioning our late good friend, John McCarthy. When he spoke about the normality of madness, I think we have to push for the normality of the services. If I fall down and break my leg, it is quite normal and I can go to an accident and emergency department. If I have suicidal tendencies, if I feel I am having a breakdown or suffering depression, there is nothing normal about where I will go. Apart from not knowing where to go, there is also a stigma about it. That is a major objective that we must realise.
Deputy Kathleen Lynch: We are developing a whole-school approach for the emotional well-being of young children and how they feel about themselves. It is a different approach and we have to be very careful about it, because we do not want to emphasise that it is a negative thing. It must always be about something very positive and how one feels about oneself and about others. Mr. Tony Bates is developing that for us for secondary schools, but I would rather we started earlier. Children are quite capable of articulating their emotional feelings from a very young age.
In answer to Deputy Troy, we could have spent the money very early on in the year, but my fear was that it would get lost in the usual abyss. We were very careful about that. We would have loved to spend it earlier. We are now spending it in a much more targeted and better way. We will have to change our thinking about how we do things in the future and this is one area in which we have been very careful. There were no problems with the bureaucrats. In fact, they were very helpful in this case.
Deputy O’Sullivan is quite right. The normalisation of mental health as part of the overall health structure is the ultimate aim. We will be able to say next year what we have done, but we also need to ensure we are constantly progressing. We would never say we are finished dealing with cancer or cardiac care and that there will be no more progress. We cannot afford to say that about mental health either. We must be always progressing our thinking, our delivery and how people access services. That kind of focused attention is what will provide us a service that will be as normal as the service provided when somebody breaks a leg.
