27 March Mahon Tribunal Report: Statements
My initial reaction to the publication of the Mahon report was to say it took far too long - 15 years - and cost far too much for it to be produced. It has been suggested that the tribunal has cost €97.9 million to date, but that figure could increase considerably if it is decided that all legal costs are to be met. My point is that any suggestion of wrongdoing - such suggestions were made prior to the 1990s and since - should be a matter for criminal investigation. Charges, trials, findings, judgments and punishments, as the case may be, could have emerged from those investigations. All of that would have been in progress or finished by now. We have tribunal millionaires as a result of the inordinate length of time the tribunal took. One of the reasons for this was the way the tribunal was set up. Its terms of reference were far too wide. I cannot help wondering if there was a certain ulterior motive for having such wide terms of reference. Was it hoped that nothing would be discovered?
I accept the tribunal’s defence that the 32 legal challenges were part of the reason it took 15 years to complete its work. The resources of the tribunal had to be diverted to meet those challenges, rather than concentrating on the work it was set up to do. The way in which the tribunal was set up did not give sufficient thought to the costs. The costs that were paid to barristers at the outset - €2,250 per day for senior counsel and €1,500 per day for junior counsel - were very generous.
It was only in 2009 and 2010 that these rates of pay were reduced by 16%. However, the rates are still very generous, at €1,760 per day for senior counsel and €1,173 per day for junior counsel. I trust the lesson is that tribunals are not the way to investigate wrongdoing. However, if we must have a tribunal again, I hope there will be narrow terms of reference, a timeframe and much more realistic costs commensurate with the fact that we are in a recession and in great economic distress.
For over 35 years, I was very proud to say I was a teacher. It is different for me now as a politician, public representative and Deputy because, in a sense, we are all tainted by the findings of the tribunal. I know that many public representatives are, like me, honest but great damage has been done to the reputations of those elected because of the view that all politicians are the same. We are not all the same but everyone elected to the Dáil, Seanad and local authorities has a responsibility to ensure there is honesty and integrity in public life.
All our institutions have been tainted. I refer to banking, finance, the church, the State and aspects of the media. I cannot help but wonder whether there is something in the male psyche causing the problem as the institutions are all male dominated. The common denominators are greed, self-interest, massive egos and a sense of self-righteousness. On reading the Mahon tribunal report, it is clear that those named and implicated are guilty in respect of all these traits and that they believe they are above correction and can do what they like.
It is horrifying to read the findings in the Mahon tribunal report because they comprise a damning indictment of our political institutions. I can only describe it as a cancer. There has been a malevolent cancer at the heart of what the tribunal investigated. Like all cancers, there is a need for radical and invasive treatment if it is to be removed.
The findings of the report show that people in elected office did not tell the truth. Fianna Fáil Ministers launched what are described as “extraordinary and unprecedented attacks on the Tribunal” to erode its independence and collapse it. Fianna Fáil is the same party that set it up. A former Minister received money for the benefit of his political party but then used it for his own personal benefit. The report refers to a developer who embraced and adopted the strategy of corruptly engaging with councillors; a developer who made or authorised payments to politicians for their backing on rezoning; politicians seeking and taking payments; abuse by a former Deputy, an elected representative, who corruptly sold political services and abused his position as an elected representatives for his own personal gain; a lobbyist making a significant personal fortune by actively and purposely misleading the tribunal; requests for party donations by two former taoisigh which the tribunal found entirely inappropriate and to constitute an abuse of political power and Government authority; findings of corruption against some 11 councillors; a former Taoiseach who failed to act on information about wrongdoing, yet proceeded to appoint the implicated person as a Minister. The central word in all of this is “abuse”, that is, abuse of the office of an elected representative of the people.
One could walk up to the court in the Phoenix Park today and find people being fined or sentenced to jail for minor offences. While I do not condone wrongdoing, I must ask whether any individual named in the tribunal’s findings has been punished proportionately. If we examine the punishments to date, we note that four people went to jail. One was sentenced to two years, with six months suspended. One spent eight months in jail and another six weeks.
Central to the findings is the unhealthy relationship between business and politics. This is crony capitalism but it is really corruption. Corruption became so firmly rooted that it appears that it became the way to do business. What happened was that some in elected office had power and used it to make millionaires of friends through very favourable rezoning decisions. Those councillors and Deputies prostituted themselves.
There is more corruption to be unearthed, particularly in respect of the way in which we have sold off our resources of gas and oil to date. Corrib Gas is a prime example. Another pertains to our contention that we charge corporation tax at 12.5%, yet much of this tax is not collected.
The damage to communities cannot be underestimated. The building boom was at the heart of what the Mahon tribunal investigated. I refer to land rezoning, the selling of vital green landscapes and the building of estates solely for profit with no regard for the services needed to make a housing estate into a community. Necessary services include playgrounds, libraries, sports facilities, shops and transport. All the housing developed did not clear the housing waiting list, nor did it see an end to homelessness. The development was utterly profit driven.
Let us consider the reactions of those named in the report. The report states former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern failed to truthfully account for the amounts lodged and that there was no credible explanation of their origin, yet Mr. Ahern stated he never accepted a bribe or corrupt payment. People who testified on Mr. Ahern’s behalf under oath had their evidence rejected by the tribunal and they are now taking refuge in the fact that one word, “corrupt”, was not used. The developer found by the tribunal to be aware of, and actively engaged in facilitating, the corrupt disbursement of payments to politicians utterly rejects the findings of the tribunal and will be seeking a judicial review.
Let us consider those who looked on. In respect of them, the Mahon tribunal report states corruption continued because nobody was prepared to do enough to stop it. One of the reasons was that those who had the power to stop it were frequently implicated. There was general apathy and not enough pressure on politicians to do anything.
In April 2007, Frank Connolly in the then Mail on Sunday carried an article on Bertie Ahern entitled “Bertie: The Money Trail”. That same morning, Bertie Ahern went to Áras an Uachtaráin to request the dissolution of the Dáil. Revelations about the money trail dominated the first half of the election campaign in 2007. While I agree with the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty, it is remarkable that in Dublin Central in the 2007 election, Bertie Ahern received three times the number of first preferences that my predecessor, the late Tony Gregory, received. Tony Gregory was a man of integrity and honesty. There was evidence in 2007 that was ignored by the Fianna Fáil Party to ensure it would stay in power. However, it was also ignored by the electorate.
The Garda, most unfortunately, is among the organisations that could have done more. Senior gardaí were found to have failed to properly investigate allegations of corruption and bribery involving senior officials and politicians. Certain sections of the media seemed to have been having a love affair with Bertie Ahern and there was no criticism allowed. The Fianna Fáil Party and its members had collective responsibility because what was occurring had been occurring for a long time. It is still disturbing to listen to and read comments by constituents of Mr. Pádraig Flynn and Mr. Bertie Ahern outlining all they did for their constituencies while disregarding the damage they and their cohorts did for the country.
One must acknowledge those who did something. Mr. Michael Smith and Mr. Colm Mac Eochaidh saw corruption and wanted to do something about it. Certain journalists persevered doggedly and some continued in the face of personal attacks on them and their reputations. It was interesting to read about Mr. Trevor Sargent of the Green Party having tried to expose corruption at a council meeting by producing a cheque from a developer. I believe he had to be escorted from the chamber for his own protection.
Can we hope for lessons to be learned? Can we say “Never again”, mean it and set about putting in motion what is necessary to root out corruption and get to the point where one can say with pride that one is a Deputy, Senator or councillor?
The Mahon report recommends that politicians who are convicted of corruption or who have failed to explain adequately their sources of income be stripped of their pensions. It recommends that other planning investigations be reopened, not by the tribunal but by a group of independent planning experts; that the CAB, the DPP and Revenue Commissioners continue to do their work; that an end be put to the massive tax reliefs for developers and to political donations; that there be a ban on gifts; and that non-co-operative witnesses pay their own costs and the costs of the tribunal. It is also recommended that there be rigorous and transparent planning regulations, which means reform of local government to ensure there are no more deals on rezoning. This means an independent planning regulator. Standards in public office ought to be more rigorous and there should be a register of lobbyists. The report recommends also that the Kenny report be implemented in full. The investigation behind this report began in 1971 and the report was published in 1974, and it called for an effective end to land speculation.
It was disquieting to listen yesterday to Deputy Martin speaking in the House. While he acknowledged wrongdoing, it seemed to have been a case of his saying, “Moriarty found out more about you than Mahon did about us.” That is not the way forward. The way forward is to say we will never let what occurred happen again, mean this and take action to ensure it.
I accept the tribunal’s defence that the 32 legal challenges were part of the reason it took 15 years to complete its work. The resources of the tribunal had to be diverted to meet those challenges, rather than concentrating on the work it was set up to do. The way in which the tribunal was set up did not give sufficient thought to the costs. The costs that were paid to barristers at the outset - €2,250 per day for senior counsel and €1,500 per day for junior counsel - were very generous.
It was only in 2009 and 2010 that these rates of pay were reduced by 16%. However, the rates are still very generous, at €1,760 per day for senior counsel and €1,173 per day for junior counsel. I trust the lesson is that tribunals are not the way to investigate wrongdoing. However, if we must have a tribunal again, I hope there will be narrow terms of reference, a timeframe and much more realistic costs commensurate with the fact that we are in a recession and in great economic distress.
For over 35 years, I was very proud to say I was a teacher. It is different for me now as a politician, public representative and Deputy because, in a sense, we are all tainted by the findings of the tribunal. I know that many public representatives are, like me, honest but great damage has been done to the reputations of those elected because of the view that all politicians are the same. We are not all the same but everyone elected to the Dáil, Seanad and local authorities has a responsibility to ensure there is honesty and integrity in public life.
All our institutions have been tainted. I refer to banking, finance, the church, the State and aspects of the media. I cannot help but wonder whether there is something in the male psyche causing the problem as the institutions are all male dominated. The common denominators are greed, self-interest, massive egos and a sense of self-righteousness. On reading the Mahon tribunal report, it is clear that those named and implicated are guilty in respect of all these traits and that they believe they are above correction and can do what they like.
It is horrifying to read the findings in the Mahon tribunal report because they comprise a damning indictment of our political institutions. I can only describe it as a cancer. There has been a malevolent cancer at the heart of what the tribunal investigated. Like all cancers, there is a need for radical and invasive treatment if it is to be removed.
The findings of the report show that people in elected office did not tell the truth. Fianna Fáil Ministers launched what are described as “extraordinary and unprecedented attacks on the Tribunal” to erode its independence and collapse it. Fianna Fáil is the same party that set it up. A former Minister received money for the benefit of his political party but then used it for his own personal benefit. The report refers to a developer who embraced and adopted the strategy of corruptly engaging with councillors; a developer who made or authorised payments to politicians for their backing on rezoning; politicians seeking and taking payments; abuse by a former Deputy, an elected representative, who corruptly sold political services and abused his position as an elected representatives for his own personal gain; a lobbyist making a significant personal fortune by actively and purposely misleading the tribunal; requests for party donations by two former taoisigh which the tribunal found entirely inappropriate and to constitute an abuse of political power and Government authority; findings of corruption against some 11 councillors; a former Taoiseach who failed to act on information about wrongdoing, yet proceeded to appoint the implicated person as a Minister. The central word in all of this is “abuse”, that is, abuse of the office of an elected representative of the people.
One could walk up to the court in the Phoenix Park today and find people being fined or sentenced to jail for minor offences. While I do not condone wrongdoing, I must ask whether any individual named in the tribunal’s findings has been punished proportionately. If we examine the punishments to date, we note that four people went to jail. One was sentenced to two years, with six months suspended. One spent eight months in jail and another six weeks.
Central to the findings is the unhealthy relationship between business and politics. This is crony capitalism but it is really corruption. Corruption became so firmly rooted that it appears that it became the way to do business. What happened was that some in elected office had power and used it to make millionaires of friends through very favourable rezoning decisions. Those councillors and Deputies prostituted themselves.
There is more corruption to be unearthed, particularly in respect of the way in which we have sold off our resources of gas and oil to date. Corrib Gas is a prime example. Another pertains to our contention that we charge corporation tax at 12.5%, yet much of this tax is not collected.
The damage to communities cannot be underestimated. The building boom was at the heart of what the Mahon tribunal investigated. I refer to land rezoning, the selling of vital green landscapes and the building of estates solely for profit with no regard for the services needed to make a housing estate into a community. Necessary services include playgrounds, libraries, sports facilities, shops and transport. All the housing developed did not clear the housing waiting list, nor did it see an end to homelessness. The development was utterly profit driven.
Let us consider the reactions of those named in the report. The report states former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern failed to truthfully account for the amounts lodged and that there was no credible explanation of their origin, yet Mr. Ahern stated he never accepted a bribe or corrupt payment. People who testified on Mr. Ahern’s behalf under oath had their evidence rejected by the tribunal and they are now taking refuge in the fact that one word, “corrupt”, was not used. The developer found by the tribunal to be aware of, and actively engaged in facilitating, the corrupt disbursement of payments to politicians utterly rejects the findings of the tribunal and will be seeking a judicial review.
Let us consider those who looked on. In respect of them, the Mahon tribunal report states corruption continued because nobody was prepared to do enough to stop it. One of the reasons was that those who had the power to stop it were frequently implicated. There was general apathy and not enough pressure on politicians to do anything.
In April 2007, Frank Connolly in the then Mail on Sunday carried an article on Bertie Ahern entitled “Bertie: The Money Trail”. That same morning, Bertie Ahern went to Áras an Uachtaráin to request the dissolution of the Dáil. Revelations about the money trail dominated the first half of the election campaign in 2007. While I agree with the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty, it is remarkable that in Dublin Central in the 2007 election, Bertie Ahern received three times the number of first preferences that my predecessor, the late Tony Gregory, received. Tony Gregory was a man of integrity and honesty. There was evidence in 2007 that was ignored by the Fianna Fáil Party to ensure it would stay in power. However, it was also ignored by the electorate.
The Garda, most unfortunately, is among the organisations that could have done more. Senior gardaí were found to have failed to properly investigate allegations of corruption and bribery involving senior officials and politicians. Certain sections of the media seemed to have been having a love affair with Bertie Ahern and there was no criticism allowed. The Fianna Fáil Party and its members had collective responsibility because what was occurring had been occurring for a long time. It is still disturbing to listen to and read comments by constituents of Mr. Pádraig Flynn and Mr. Bertie Ahern outlining all they did for their constituencies while disregarding the damage they and their cohorts did for the country.
One must acknowledge those who did something. Mr. Michael Smith and Mr. Colm Mac Eochaidh saw corruption and wanted to do something about it. Certain journalists persevered doggedly and some continued in the face of personal attacks on them and their reputations. It was interesting to read about Mr. Trevor Sargent of the Green Party having tried to expose corruption at a council meeting by producing a cheque from a developer. I believe he had to be escorted from the chamber for his own protection.
Can we hope for lessons to be learned? Can we say “Never again”, mean it and set about putting in motion what is necessary to root out corruption and get to the point where one can say with pride that one is a Deputy, Senator or councillor?
The Mahon report recommends that politicians who are convicted of corruption or who have failed to explain adequately their sources of income be stripped of their pensions. It recommends that other planning investigations be reopened, not by the tribunal but by a group of independent planning experts; that the CAB, the DPP and Revenue Commissioners continue to do their work; that an end be put to the massive tax reliefs for developers and to political donations; that there be a ban on gifts; and that non-co-operative witnesses pay their own costs and the costs of the tribunal. It is also recommended that there be rigorous and transparent planning regulations, which means reform of local government to ensure there are no more deals on rezoning. This means an independent planning regulator. Standards in public office ought to be more rigorous and there should be a register of lobbyists. The report recommends also that the Kenny report be implemented in full. The investigation behind this report began in 1971 and the report was published in 1974, and it called for an effective end to land speculation.
It was disquieting to listen yesterday to Deputy Martin speaking in the House. While he acknowledged wrongdoing, it seemed to have been a case of his saying, “Moriarty found out more about you than Mahon did about us.” That is not the way forward. The way forward is to say we will never let what occurred happen again, mean this and take action to ensure it.
15 March Symphysiotomy: Statements
In one and a half years in the previous Dáil and one year to date in this Dáil, I have come across a number of forgotten groups in society. These include the post-polio survivors, survivors of thalidomide and women who lived - or, rather, existed - in the Magdalen laundries. This is another group that has been forgotten by society. I acknowledge the work of Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin in bringing this matter to the Chamber, where it deserves to be, and in setting up the all-party group on the topic.
The facts of the procedure are chilling and disturbing. These include unhinging the pelvis, severing joints and sundering pubic bones. I acknowledge that 180 women still survive. Some of them have ended up permanently disabled, incontinent and in pain. Some faced the anguish of losing their babies doing the procedure. It is a very sad issue. In talking about it, can we do justice to the stories in the way these women can? Some of the women were unaware of what they were going through, which is frightening, because it was not spoken of until recently. I acknowledge the work of Marie O’Connor and her book, Bodily Harm: Symphysiotomy and Pubiotomy in Ireland 1944-92. She pays tribute to the women and speaks of their courage, tenacity, determination and indomitable spirit. It must be difficult for them to sit here and go through it all again.
The procedure was described as widening the pelvis but it really severed the pelvis. It was carried out by doctors at the same time as they were withholding the procedure of caesarean section. It was dangerous for mothers and babies and some procedures were performed in the aftermath of the caesarean while others were performed during labour. It is too cruel to think about it. Women in labour for many hours could have had the operation forced upon them without warning in the labour ward or in theatre and sometimes without anaesthetic. One can imagine the pain of women trying to give birth with an unhinged pelvis and then discharged with a broken pelvis with no medical treatment and no painkillers. The idea of patient consent or discussion with the patient of the implications and consequences of the procedure was a non-event. Options were not discussed and a lot of time elapsed before the women understood what had happened. It belongs to a time when women, their dignity and their rights were a non-event. We have seen examples of the failure of care during surgery and afterwards when people with walking disabilities were in chronic pain. The disability benefits were inadequate, as was access to services. These women suffered and their health was affected and they deserve to be looked after by the State. I note that the Minister mentioned the range of services but these are not getting through to all of the women. Like many of the ladies in the Magdalene laundries, their advancing age is a factor and they should have justice before their time is over. Caesarean section was a safer alternative yet dangerous operations such as symphysiotomy and pubiotomy were continued. This must be seen as an example of medical negligence and breaches of the constitutional rights of women, their right to dignity, the right to make decisions about their own bodies and the right to medical care and treatment. It was a violation of human rights and is linked to a male-dominated medical profession, the male-dominated Catholic Church and decisions made about women to which they were not party. Many of our institutions were involved in that. One lady called it a daily crucifixion.
I support the calls made and the questions that must be answered. We must acknowledge the physical and psychological disabilities. The questions include why there are no medical records, why they are not receiving the care they need, why medical staff did not give them information about the procedure prior to it and why women were discharged with pelvic injuries without providing adequate care. There is no doubt it is barbaric.
The facts of the procedure are chilling and disturbing. These include unhinging the pelvis, severing joints and sundering pubic bones. I acknowledge that 180 women still survive. Some of them have ended up permanently disabled, incontinent and in pain. Some faced the anguish of losing their babies doing the procedure. It is a very sad issue. In talking about it, can we do justice to the stories in the way these women can? Some of the women were unaware of what they were going through, which is frightening, because it was not spoken of until recently. I acknowledge the work of Marie O’Connor and her book, Bodily Harm: Symphysiotomy and Pubiotomy in Ireland 1944-92. She pays tribute to the women and speaks of their courage, tenacity, determination and indomitable spirit. It must be difficult for them to sit here and go through it all again.
The procedure was described as widening the pelvis but it really severed the pelvis. It was carried out by doctors at the same time as they were withholding the procedure of caesarean section. It was dangerous for mothers and babies and some procedures were performed in the aftermath of the caesarean while others were performed during labour. It is too cruel to think about it. Women in labour for many hours could have had the operation forced upon them without warning in the labour ward or in theatre and sometimes without anaesthetic. One can imagine the pain of women trying to give birth with an unhinged pelvis and then discharged with a broken pelvis with no medical treatment and no painkillers. The idea of patient consent or discussion with the patient of the implications and consequences of the procedure was a non-event. Options were not discussed and a lot of time elapsed before the women understood what had happened. It belongs to a time when women, their dignity and their rights were a non-event. We have seen examples of the failure of care during surgery and afterwards when people with walking disabilities were in chronic pain. The disability benefits were inadequate, as was access to services. These women suffered and their health was affected and they deserve to be looked after by the State. I note that the Minister mentioned the range of services but these are not getting through to all of the women. Like many of the ladies in the Magdalene laundries, their advancing age is a factor and they should have justice before their time is over. Caesarean section was a safer alternative yet dangerous operations such as symphysiotomy and pubiotomy were continued. This must be seen as an example of medical negligence and breaches of the constitutional rights of women, their right to dignity, the right to make decisions about their own bodies and the right to medical care and treatment. It was a violation of human rights and is linked to a male-dominated medical profession, the male-dominated Catholic Church and decisions made about women to which they were not party. Many of our institutions were involved in that. One lady called it a daily crucifixion.
I support the calls made and the questions that must be answered. We must acknowledge the physical and psychological disabilities. The questions include why there are no medical records, why they are not receiving the care they need, why medical staff did not give them information about the procedure prior to it and why women were discharged with pelvic injuries without providing adequate care. There is no doubt it is barbaric.
13 March 2012 Priority Questions - Magdalene Laundries
View of Mecklenburgh St. Laundry grave
Maureen asking the Minister for Justice and Equality a priority question on he Magadelene Laundries, as to what is the position regarding the ongoing investigation into the Magdalene Laundry; in particular, if he will report to Dáil Éireann on the progress made to date on the Ministerial track of the investigation, item 2 as described in the Government’s statement; and if he will offer a commitment that the twin-tracks of the Government’s investigation are ongoing simultaneously, that he does not envisage them as consecutive that is the Ministerial track absolutely dependent on the conclusion of the Inter-Departmental Committee’s work. [14048/12]
Deputy Alan Shatter:The Government considered the circumstances of women and girls who resided in the laundries at its meeting on 14 June 2011 and decided that it was essential as a first step to fully establish the true facts and circumstances relating to the Magdalene laundries. A number of actions were agreed.
This included the setting up of an inter-departmental committee to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalene laundries, to clarify any State interaction, and to produce a narrative detailing such interaction. The committee, under the independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese, has submitted an interim progress report and its final report is expected in the middle of this year.
In addition, the Government also decided that I and the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality, mental health and older people, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, should meet with the religious congregations and groups representing former residents of the Magdalene laundries to discuss among other things the question of availability of records, those still in the care of the religious congregations, and facilitating a restorative and reconciliation process.
I am pleased to say that meetings with all concerned took place some time ago. Progress has been made on the various issues including the question of a restorative and reconciliation process between individuals who had been in such institutions and the orders which ran the institutions in question. Matters have not yet been finalised but I hope to be in a position to make an announcement in the near future.
While some issues can and are being progressed, there are other issues which are dependent on the outcome of the work of the inter-departmental committee. I am conscious of the need to progress matters as quickly as possible. However, it is important to emphasise that we are in a process which is seeking to fully establish the facts and it is still too early at this stage to predict what the outcomes might be.
I look forward to receiving the committee’s report when the very important work in which it is engaged has been concluded.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I thank the Minister for that reply. It sounds as if progress is being made but the Minister would have to agree that justice has been delayed far too long for these ladies. The Irish Human Rights Commission and the United Nations Committee Against Torture recommended an apology, redress and that a start would be made to facilitate restorative justice and nothing has happened on any of those recommendations. There has not been even an apology from the State, the Church, religious orders, families or society. Time is of the essence because of the age of these ladies. The Minister was horrified when I suggested previously there could have been a delaying tactic around this issue, and I was glad to hear that expressed. As soon as that report is available mid-year, will the Minister then be ready to commence the implementation of the apology, the redress and the restorative justice process?
Deputy Alan Shatter: I remind the Deputy that in November 2010 the Irish Human Rights Commission in its assessment of human rights issues arising in regard to the Magdalene Laundries stated:
... a statutory mechanism be established to investigate the matters advanced by the JFM, Justice For Magdalenes, and in appropriate cases to grant redress where warranted.
Such a mechanism should first examine the extent of the State’s involvement in and responsibility for:
a)The girls and women entering the laundries
b)The conditions in the laundries
c)The manner in which girls and women left the laundries and
d)End-of life issues for those who remained.
In the event of State involvement and/or responsibility being established, that the statutory mechanism then advance to conducting a larger-scale review of what occurred.
The approach being taken by the interdepartmental committee is consistent with the recommendations of the Human Rights Commission.
As to the observations of the UN Committee Against Torture in May and June 2011, it recommended that there should be “thorough investigations into all allegations of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment that were allegedly committed in the Magdalene laundries and in appropriate cases prosecute and punish the perpetrators” and victims should have “an enforceable right to compensation”.
Persons seeking an investigation with a view to a criminal prosecution should and can make a complaint to An Garda Síochána. As far as I know, no such complaint has been made. Under our legal system, the right to compensation for a tort is enforceable through civil proceedings in the courts. As far as I know, no such proceedings have been taken. It is of considerable importance that the work undertaken by Senator McAleese proceeds so that we get a full and clear narrative.
With regard to the Deputy’s complaint about delays in dealing with this matter, the issue of the Magdalene laundries, the concerns surrounding those who resided within them and the manner in which they were treated have been in the public forum for many years and nothing was done about it. Within a short few weeks of being in government in June of last year, this matter was fully addressed by the Cabinet. Proposals were adopted and by July the interdepartmental committee was established. It has been doing very substantial work.
Together with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, I have met the religious orders, representative groups and others who are concerned about those who lived in the laundries. Some were there for a short few weeks, some for one or two years and others for many years. Many of the women who ended up being resident in the laundries in their late teens or early 20s came from all sorts of different places. Some were left there by their families in circumstances in which the State had no involvement of any description. This is not a simple issue but we are doing our best to address it in a thorough, comprehensive and sensitive way and we are engaging with all sides which are concerned about it.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I accept more has been done in the past year than previously. Many of the ladies concerned were deprived of dignity in their lives and are also being deprived of dignity in their deaths. The names on the gravestone in Glasnevin do not correlate to those given to the Department. The memorial in Bohermore in Galway has no names on it. The cross in the Mecklenburgh Magdalene laundry has the word “Penitent” on it. As soon as the report is available, will the Minister be in a position to start the process of redress and apology?
Deputy Alan Shatter: I am not going to prejudge what is in the report.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I presume there will be suggestions.
Deputy Alan Shatter: The reason that work is being done is so that there is a full and accurate narrative which people can rely on as being truthful and correct. The issues the Deputy raises are not issues directly derived from the conduct of the State. There are particular issues in the context of the religious orders.
A number of women who entered Magdalene laundries and remained there throughout their lives are now elderly and are being cared for by the religious orders in circumstances in which there are no family members caring for them. This is a very complicated background. It is not a simple, straightforward situation.
There are, of course, women who feel they were very badly treated and believe that their lives have been substantially blighted by that treatment. The report of the interdepartmental committee will provide us with the additional information we need. It will be published, considered by Government and appropriate decisions will be made arising out of it.
Deputy Alan Shatter:The Government considered the circumstances of women and girls who resided in the laundries at its meeting on 14 June 2011 and decided that it was essential as a first step to fully establish the true facts and circumstances relating to the Magdalene laundries. A number of actions were agreed.
This included the setting up of an inter-departmental committee to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalene laundries, to clarify any State interaction, and to produce a narrative detailing such interaction. The committee, under the independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese, has submitted an interim progress report and its final report is expected in the middle of this year.
In addition, the Government also decided that I and the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality, mental health and older people, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, should meet with the religious congregations and groups representing former residents of the Magdalene laundries to discuss among other things the question of availability of records, those still in the care of the religious congregations, and facilitating a restorative and reconciliation process.
I am pleased to say that meetings with all concerned took place some time ago. Progress has been made on the various issues including the question of a restorative and reconciliation process between individuals who had been in such institutions and the orders which ran the institutions in question. Matters have not yet been finalised but I hope to be in a position to make an announcement in the near future.
While some issues can and are being progressed, there are other issues which are dependent on the outcome of the work of the inter-departmental committee. I am conscious of the need to progress matters as quickly as possible. However, it is important to emphasise that we are in a process which is seeking to fully establish the facts and it is still too early at this stage to predict what the outcomes might be.
I look forward to receiving the committee’s report when the very important work in which it is engaged has been concluded.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I thank the Minister for that reply. It sounds as if progress is being made but the Minister would have to agree that justice has been delayed far too long for these ladies. The Irish Human Rights Commission and the United Nations Committee Against Torture recommended an apology, redress and that a start would be made to facilitate restorative justice and nothing has happened on any of those recommendations. There has not been even an apology from the State, the Church, religious orders, families or society. Time is of the essence because of the age of these ladies. The Minister was horrified when I suggested previously there could have been a delaying tactic around this issue, and I was glad to hear that expressed. As soon as that report is available mid-year, will the Minister then be ready to commence the implementation of the apology, the redress and the restorative justice process?
Deputy Alan Shatter: I remind the Deputy that in November 2010 the Irish Human Rights Commission in its assessment of human rights issues arising in regard to the Magdalene Laundries stated:
... a statutory mechanism be established to investigate the matters advanced by the JFM, Justice For Magdalenes, and in appropriate cases to grant redress where warranted.
Such a mechanism should first examine the extent of the State’s involvement in and responsibility for:
a)The girls and women entering the laundries
b)The conditions in the laundries
c)The manner in which girls and women left the laundries and
d)End-of life issues for those who remained.
In the event of State involvement and/or responsibility being established, that the statutory mechanism then advance to conducting a larger-scale review of what occurred.
The approach being taken by the interdepartmental committee is consistent with the recommendations of the Human Rights Commission.
As to the observations of the UN Committee Against Torture in May and June 2011, it recommended that there should be “thorough investigations into all allegations of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment that were allegedly committed in the Magdalene laundries and in appropriate cases prosecute and punish the perpetrators” and victims should have “an enforceable right to compensation”.
Persons seeking an investigation with a view to a criminal prosecution should and can make a complaint to An Garda Síochána. As far as I know, no such complaint has been made. Under our legal system, the right to compensation for a tort is enforceable through civil proceedings in the courts. As far as I know, no such proceedings have been taken. It is of considerable importance that the work undertaken by Senator McAleese proceeds so that we get a full and clear narrative.
With regard to the Deputy’s complaint about delays in dealing with this matter, the issue of the Magdalene laundries, the concerns surrounding those who resided within them and the manner in which they were treated have been in the public forum for many years and nothing was done about it. Within a short few weeks of being in government in June of last year, this matter was fully addressed by the Cabinet. Proposals were adopted and by July the interdepartmental committee was established. It has been doing very substantial work.
Together with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, I have met the religious orders, representative groups and others who are concerned about those who lived in the laundries. Some were there for a short few weeks, some for one or two years and others for many years. Many of the women who ended up being resident in the laundries in their late teens or early 20s came from all sorts of different places. Some were left there by their families in circumstances in which the State had no involvement of any description. This is not a simple issue but we are doing our best to address it in a thorough, comprehensive and sensitive way and we are engaging with all sides which are concerned about it.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I accept more has been done in the past year than previously. Many of the ladies concerned were deprived of dignity in their lives and are also being deprived of dignity in their deaths. The names on the gravestone in Glasnevin do not correlate to those given to the Department. The memorial in Bohermore in Galway has no names on it. The cross in the Mecklenburgh Magdalene laundry has the word “Penitent” on it. As soon as the report is available, will the Minister be in a position to start the process of redress and apology?
Deputy Alan Shatter: I am not going to prejudge what is in the report.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I presume there will be suggestions.
Deputy Alan Shatter: The reason that work is being done is so that there is a full and accurate narrative which people can rely on as being truthful and correct. The issues the Deputy raises are not issues directly derived from the conduct of the State. There are particular issues in the context of the religious orders.
A number of women who entered Magdalene laundries and remained there throughout their lives are now elderly and are being cared for by the religious orders in circumstances in which there are no family members caring for them. This is a very complicated background. It is not a simple, straightforward situation.
There are, of course, women who feel they were very badly treated and believe that their lives have been substantially blighted by that treatment. The report of the interdepartmental committee will provide us with the additional information we need. It will be published, considered by Government and appropriate decisions will be made arising out of it.
07 March Topical Issue Matters - Human Rights Issues Mrs. Asia Bibi
Click to hear Maureen speak on issue
I acknowledge the work of Deputy Tuffy and Mr. David Turner in organising a petition on the case of Mrs. Asia Bibi last September, which was a first positive step. Ireland is seeking election to the United Nations Human Rights Council for the 2013-2015 term, and we deserve that seat. We have a fine reputation in respect of relationships with other countries and with regard to our development aid budget. Like Deputy Mac Lochlainn, I have just come from a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, at which this point was being made. I also heard the same point last night at a presentation by various NGOs. As we know Ireland has such a reputation and has a voice that is listened to, I believe it has a role in this regard, even though it concerns a country that is far distant from Ireland.
Governor Salman Taseer was murdered in January 2011 and this was followed in March 2011 by the murder of the Federal Minister, Shahbaz Bhatti. They were two brave men who spoke out against Pakistan’s blasphemy laws and paid with their lives. The situation now has arisen concerning the aforementioned lady, Mrs. Asia Bibi, who is in jail. Part of her difficulty is that no date has been given and, consequently, she could remain in jail for a number of years before her case is heard. In common with my colleagues, I advocate marking this anniversary by reiterating our support for Articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In her response, the Minister might indicate any correspondence the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has had with the Pakistani authorities. . . .
. . . One of the other alarming aspects of cases of this nature is the way in which death sentences are carried out by mobs. I accept that the Pakistani Government has indicated that it is committed to this issue. However, it appears to be talking the talk rather than walking the walk. Given that the anniversary of the murder of the late Minister for minorities has just passed, I am of the view that strong representations should be made to the Pakistani ambassador and that he should be asked to take this matter further.
Governor Salman Taseer was murdered in January 2011 and this was followed in March 2011 by the murder of the Federal Minister, Shahbaz Bhatti. They were two brave men who spoke out against Pakistan’s blasphemy laws and paid with their lives. The situation now has arisen concerning the aforementioned lady, Mrs. Asia Bibi, who is in jail. Part of her difficulty is that no date has been given and, consequently, she could remain in jail for a number of years before her case is heard. In common with my colleagues, I advocate marking this anniversary by reiterating our support for Articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In her response, the Minister might indicate any correspondence the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has had with the Pakistani authorities. . . .
. . . One of the other alarming aspects of cases of this nature is the way in which death sentences are carried out by mobs. I accept that the Pakistani Government has indicated that it is committed to this issue. However, it appears to be talking the talk rather than walking the walk. Given that the anniversary of the murder of the late Minister for minorities has just passed, I am of the view that strong representations should be made to the Pakistani ambassador and that he should be asked to take this matter further.
07ú Márta Lá na Gaeilge: Raiteas
Cnag chun éist le ráiteas Maureen
Tá áthas orm go bhfuil Seachtain na Gaeilge againn agus go bhfuil cuid de gnó na Dála ag leanúint ar aghaidh as Gaeilge. I slí eile, tá díomá orm toisc nach bhfuil ach seachtain amháin againn sa bhliain nuair a dhéanann muid iarracht leanúint ar aghaidh as Gaeilge. B’fhéidir go mba ceart dúinn níos mó iarrachta a dhéanamh sa Dáil agus lá nó maidin gach seachtain, nó ar a laghad gach mhí, a thabhairt le gnó na Dála a phlé trí Ghaeilge.
Tá Gaeilge agam, ach b’fhearr liom dá mbeadh sí i bhfad níos fearr. An fáth go bhfuil sí agam ná go raibh an suim ag mo mháthair i gcúrsaí Gaeilge. Bhí an t-ádh orm chomh maith nuair a bhí mé ag freastal ar an mheánscoil - Cnoc Carmel, Sráid Óstaí an Rí, Baile Átha Cliath - toisc go raibh beirt múinteoir Gaeilge agam a bhí ar fheabhas. Ba as Ciarraí an bheirt bhan agus ba chainteoiríó dhúchas iad. Spreag siad grá don teanga ionam agus i mo chairde. Bhí a fhios againn gur rud bheo í an Ghaeilge agus gur teanga í le labhairt in ionad í a fhágaint sna leabhair. Sin an tslí le dul ar aghaidh leis an Ghaeilge. Caithfidh mé a admháil gur bhain mé lán taitneamh as Peig, Fiche Bliain ag Fás agus An t-Oileánach nuair a bhí mé ag staidéar don ardteist. Thaitin siad liom. Tá litríocht agus filíocht an-saibhir againn as Gaeilge. Nuair a bhí an toghchán ar siúl an bhliain seo caite, is dócha gur cheap a lán daoine gurb í an díospóireacht as Gaeilge idir na ceannairí an díospóireacht is fearr.
Má tá muid i ndáiríre maidir leis an Ghaeilge, ba cheart go mbeadh gach bunscoil mar Gaelscoil. Téann leanaí ar Gaelscoil ag ceithre nó cúig bliain d’aois agus bíonn Gaeilge ag cuid acu, ach ní bhíonn Gaeilge ag cuid mhór dóibh, ach bíonn fonn ar a dtuismitheoirí go mbeidh Gaeilge acu. Tar éis bliana nó dhá bhliain bíonn siad ar fad ag labhairt Gaeilge. Tá páistí cosúil le spúinsí ag an aois sin agus is féidir leo teanga eile a labhairt chomh maith lena gnáth teanga. Tá an obair á dhéanamh ag na Gaelscoileanna, bunscoileanna agus meánscoileanna agus ba cheart go dtabharfadh an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna tacaíocht dóibh leanúint ar aghaidh leis an obair. Nuair atá fonn ar tuismitheoirí Gaelscoil a bhunú, ba cheart don Roinn tacaíocht a thabhairt dóibh.
Ba cheart go mbeadh seans níos mó ag daoine labhairt as Gaeilge agus muinín a bheith acu é sin a dhéanamh. Labhair daoine faoi TG4 agus raidió trí Ghaeilge. Caithfidh mé comhghairdeas a ghabháil le Raidió na Life. Tá an 'job' á dhéanamh ag an fhoireann ansin agus anois tá a fhios againn gur féidir caint as Gaeilge le blas duine ó Bhaile Átha Cliath. Ceapaim gur féidir linn a bheith cosúil le tír mar Ceanada, An Bhreatain Bheag agus an Bheilg, tíortha atá dhátheangach.
Tá Gaeilge agam, ach b’fhearr liom dá mbeadh sí i bhfad níos fearr. An fáth go bhfuil sí agam ná go raibh an suim ag mo mháthair i gcúrsaí Gaeilge. Bhí an t-ádh orm chomh maith nuair a bhí mé ag freastal ar an mheánscoil - Cnoc Carmel, Sráid Óstaí an Rí, Baile Átha Cliath - toisc go raibh beirt múinteoir Gaeilge agam a bhí ar fheabhas. Ba as Ciarraí an bheirt bhan agus ba chainteoiríó dhúchas iad. Spreag siad grá don teanga ionam agus i mo chairde. Bhí a fhios againn gur rud bheo í an Ghaeilge agus gur teanga í le labhairt in ionad í a fhágaint sna leabhair. Sin an tslí le dul ar aghaidh leis an Ghaeilge. Caithfidh mé a admháil gur bhain mé lán taitneamh as Peig, Fiche Bliain ag Fás agus An t-Oileánach nuair a bhí mé ag staidéar don ardteist. Thaitin siad liom. Tá litríocht agus filíocht an-saibhir againn as Gaeilge. Nuair a bhí an toghchán ar siúl an bhliain seo caite, is dócha gur cheap a lán daoine gurb í an díospóireacht as Gaeilge idir na ceannairí an díospóireacht is fearr.
Má tá muid i ndáiríre maidir leis an Ghaeilge, ba cheart go mbeadh gach bunscoil mar Gaelscoil. Téann leanaí ar Gaelscoil ag ceithre nó cúig bliain d’aois agus bíonn Gaeilge ag cuid acu, ach ní bhíonn Gaeilge ag cuid mhór dóibh, ach bíonn fonn ar a dtuismitheoirí go mbeidh Gaeilge acu. Tar éis bliana nó dhá bhliain bíonn siad ar fad ag labhairt Gaeilge. Tá páistí cosúil le spúinsí ag an aois sin agus is féidir leo teanga eile a labhairt chomh maith lena gnáth teanga. Tá an obair á dhéanamh ag na Gaelscoileanna, bunscoileanna agus meánscoileanna agus ba cheart go dtabharfadh an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna tacaíocht dóibh leanúint ar aghaidh leis an obair. Nuair atá fonn ar tuismitheoirí Gaelscoil a bhunú, ba cheart don Roinn tacaíocht a thabhairt dóibh.
Ba cheart go mbeadh seans níos mó ag daoine labhairt as Gaeilge agus muinín a bheith acu é sin a dhéanamh. Labhair daoine faoi TG4 agus raidió trí Ghaeilge. Caithfidh mé comhghairdeas a ghabháil le Raidió na Life. Tá an 'job' á dhéanamh ag an fhoireann ansin agus anois tá a fhios againn gur féidir caint as Gaeilge le blas duine ó Bhaile Átha Cliath. Ceapaim gur féidir linn a bheith cosúil le tír mar Ceanada, An Bhreatain Bheag agus an Bheilg, tíortha atá dhátheangach.
01 March Scrap and Precious Metal Dealers Bill 2011: Second Stage
I wish to share my time with Deputy Joan Collins. Many debates in this House are on the big issues, the macro issues, so it is good to deal with a matter which has a direct impact on people’s lives, both in rural and urban areas. The Minister says this Bill provides a useful opportunity to discuss the issues and that he regards it as an earnest attempt to deal with the issues. However, in my view, the Friday morning sittings of the House must go further than this; otherwise, they become a talking shop and no matter what is introduced on one side will not be supported on the other side. There is a need for action to come out of these morning sittings rather than one side against the other.
Farms, building sites, churches, clubs and homes have been targeted for metal because it is very easy to turn that metal into very lucrative cash situations. This Bill would apply to certain businesses the strict control which applies to practically every other business. Rural areas are particularly vulnerable. Farms, in particular those in isolated places, are a prime target. The one part of Ireland I know very well is west Cork and it has been a particular target for these gangs. We have seen the extent of the scrap metal, gold and machinery which has been stolen. I do not know the answer but are there links to the closure of the rural Garda stations? Bronze, copper and stainless steel are the metals which are being targeted because there are high financial rewards for the gangs and very nice profits to be melted down. It is extremely easy for them which is part of the problem. The gangs are well organised. They have cutting equipment and transport and they know what they are doing and what they can get away with, which is the key point.
I refer to the various attacks on the arts, and examples were given this morning and the media have covered them. People have spent much time producing these works of sculpture suddenly to find to their absolute amazement and horror that they have been taken. The bronze Gráinne Óg statue, which weighed 1 tonne, was taken from a location near Moate in Deputy Bannon’s constituency. Another 1,000 kg, 3 m tall bronze statue was taken from County Kildare while another statue was taken from Rathmore in County Kerry. I refer to the extreme poignancy of the one mentioned in County Laois. People raised funds to erect a 10 ft bronze, copper and brass statue in memory of 30 young people who had died in tragic circumstances. Those statues were targeted and taken because people could get away with it and make nice profits.
There is also a very lucrative trade in copper wire from the theft of overhead telephone cables. We know of steel gates being stolen from railway level crossings. The other particularly nasty theft, which Deputy Catherine Murphy mentioned earlier, was that of slides from playgrounds. Imagine taking slides from playgrounds, which are funded by local authorities whose funding is being cut. The children are being left without them and they must be replaced.
I turn to the city areas and cash for gold, although I know it is not particular to these areas. There is no doubt but that this was rampant throughout Dublin Central, which I represent. The issue of cash for gold came up at meeting after meeting. A particularly significant aspect of it was the way local authorities allowed their premises to be used as venues for cash for gold but eventually, via the policing forum, that was disallowed. I also believe there was a connection between the increase in burglaries in those areas and the cash for gold businesses and the availability of drugs, and we know how serious an issue that is.
What Deputy Mattie McGrath is doing in this Bill is very practical and he has come up with very definite suggestions. One of the main ones is that there should be no cash transactions and that there is always a paper trail. That should be fairly easy to bring in. The use of CCTV has also been mentioned. Scrap metal companies should be obliged to look for proof of where the material has come from because there are situations in which the black economy is being contributed to and this is a very lucrative area for the black economy. I do not believe there is any targeting of legitimate jewellery and antique businesses, which the Minister mentioned.
The Minister referred to critical matters for which the Bill does not make provision. I hope that when it reaches the next Stage, those provisions will be included so the reasons Deputy Mattie McGrath brought this Bill to the House will be taken care of.
The Minister also mentioned the aspects involving An Garda Síochána and said there is a requirement to carefully examine the resource implications of any proposed roles envisaged for An Garda Síochána in any new regulatory matters because it is not practical to tie up valuable Garda time and resources with registration issues more appropriate to another body. An Garda Síochána has been given various bureaucratic jobs, such as signing passport forms, which it could well do without and put its time to better use. The Minister also made the point that the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána indicated no identifiable increase in crime as a result of the increase of cash for gold trading but I have to dispute that. I have sat at various community meetings in Dublin Central and at all of those meetings, the point was made that there was an increase in crime. The Commissioner also informed the Minister that cash for gold premises are all visited by the Garda Síochána. Again, I find that very difficult to believe. The Minister made the point that there is a case for tighter requirements, specifically in that sector, focused on the identification of those offering items for sale. There are aspects in Deputy Mattie McGrath’s Bill which would cover all of those points.
To go back to the point I made initially, the Friday sitting must be looked at, so it is not just a discussion for the sake of it.
Farms, building sites, churches, clubs and homes have been targeted for metal because it is very easy to turn that metal into very lucrative cash situations. This Bill would apply to certain businesses the strict control which applies to practically every other business. Rural areas are particularly vulnerable. Farms, in particular those in isolated places, are a prime target. The one part of Ireland I know very well is west Cork and it has been a particular target for these gangs. We have seen the extent of the scrap metal, gold and machinery which has been stolen. I do not know the answer but are there links to the closure of the rural Garda stations? Bronze, copper and stainless steel are the metals which are being targeted because there are high financial rewards for the gangs and very nice profits to be melted down. It is extremely easy for them which is part of the problem. The gangs are well organised. They have cutting equipment and transport and they know what they are doing and what they can get away with, which is the key point.
I refer to the various attacks on the arts, and examples were given this morning and the media have covered them. People have spent much time producing these works of sculpture suddenly to find to their absolute amazement and horror that they have been taken. The bronze Gráinne Óg statue, which weighed 1 tonne, was taken from a location near Moate in Deputy Bannon’s constituency. Another 1,000 kg, 3 m tall bronze statue was taken from County Kildare while another statue was taken from Rathmore in County Kerry. I refer to the extreme poignancy of the one mentioned in County Laois. People raised funds to erect a 10 ft bronze, copper and brass statue in memory of 30 young people who had died in tragic circumstances. Those statues were targeted and taken because people could get away with it and make nice profits.
There is also a very lucrative trade in copper wire from the theft of overhead telephone cables. We know of steel gates being stolen from railway level crossings. The other particularly nasty theft, which Deputy Catherine Murphy mentioned earlier, was that of slides from playgrounds. Imagine taking slides from playgrounds, which are funded by local authorities whose funding is being cut. The children are being left without them and they must be replaced.
I turn to the city areas and cash for gold, although I know it is not particular to these areas. There is no doubt but that this was rampant throughout Dublin Central, which I represent. The issue of cash for gold came up at meeting after meeting. A particularly significant aspect of it was the way local authorities allowed their premises to be used as venues for cash for gold but eventually, via the policing forum, that was disallowed. I also believe there was a connection between the increase in burglaries in those areas and the cash for gold businesses and the availability of drugs, and we know how serious an issue that is.
What Deputy Mattie McGrath is doing in this Bill is very practical and he has come up with very definite suggestions. One of the main ones is that there should be no cash transactions and that there is always a paper trail. That should be fairly easy to bring in. The use of CCTV has also been mentioned. Scrap metal companies should be obliged to look for proof of where the material has come from because there are situations in which the black economy is being contributed to and this is a very lucrative area for the black economy. I do not believe there is any targeting of legitimate jewellery and antique businesses, which the Minister mentioned.
The Minister referred to critical matters for which the Bill does not make provision. I hope that when it reaches the next Stage, those provisions will be included so the reasons Deputy Mattie McGrath brought this Bill to the House will be taken care of.
The Minister also mentioned the aspects involving An Garda Síochána and said there is a requirement to carefully examine the resource implications of any proposed roles envisaged for An Garda Síochána in any new regulatory matters because it is not practical to tie up valuable Garda time and resources with registration issues more appropriate to another body. An Garda Síochána has been given various bureaucratic jobs, such as signing passport forms, which it could well do without and put its time to better use. The Minister also made the point that the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána indicated no identifiable increase in crime as a result of the increase of cash for gold trading but I have to dispute that. I have sat at various community meetings in Dublin Central and at all of those meetings, the point was made that there was an increase in crime. The Commissioner also informed the Minister that cash for gold premises are all visited by the Garda Síochána. Again, I find that very difficult to believe. The Minister made the point that there is a case for tighter requirements, specifically in that sector, focused on the identification of those offering items for sale. There are aspects in Deputy Mattie McGrath’s Bill which would cover all of those points.
To go back to the point I made initially, the Friday sitting must be looked at, so it is not just a discussion for the sake of it.
