24 Nov 2011 Cillíní (Children’s Burial Grounds)
Click to hear Exchange in full
Maureen, as a priority question, asked the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht if there is a list of identified sites specific to cillíní; and if he is satisfied that the legislation is sufficiently strong to protect these unmarked graves. [36918/11]
Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht: The term cillín traditionally applies to an area of unconsecrated ground where unbaptised or stillborn children were interred. The origins of the practice are believed to date back to the medieval period. Graves were generally marked by simple, low, upright stones or slabs that usually lacked inscription or other carving.
All known cillíní are listed as children’s burial grounds in the statutory record of monuments and places maintained by my Department in accordance with the requirements of the National Monuments Acts. In all, details of 1,393 cillíní are contained in the record.
Because of their inclusion in the record of monuments and places, cillíní are entitled to statutory protection under section 12 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994. This provision requires any person intending to carry out work at or in relation to a recorded monument to provide the Minister with two months advance notice of the proposal. This allows my Department time to consider how the work may proceed in tandem with the protection of the particular monument. Failure to comply with the requirement to notify the Minister is an offence under the Acts and is subject to significant penalties.
I am advised that no proposals likely to impact on cillíní have been notified to my Department in recent years.
Maureen O'Sullivan: This is a sensitive area. We are not talking about stillborn babies only. Some of those buried in unconsecrated ground were victims of infanticide or suicide or people who died in mental institutions or industrial schools. Quite a number of people were, for various reasons, not buried in consecrated ground.
I accept what the Minister says about the sites that are included in the list of monuments, but there are far more in the country. In many places, there is a reliance on local knowledge and folklore to protect them. In many cases there are no living relatives but in a significant number of cases there are.
Could the matter of unmarked graves be pursued with the archaeology departments in our universities? There is a danger that they could be lost with development.
I welcome what Deputy O’Sullivan has said. If the Deputy has any information about unconsecrated burial grounds or locations where investigations should be carried out, I ask her to bring that to my attention so that I can arrange for her to meet the National Parks and Wildlife Service and senior officials in my Department on this very sensitive issue whenever she would like that opportunity. If she wishes to pursue this matter I will help her in every way possible. I agree that this is a very sensitive issue.
In our own neighbourhoods we have heard of where there were graveyards in the past where infants were buried in various circumstances. We may not have documentary evidence to prove this but some of this information may be accurate. If I can assist the Deputy in pursuing this matter, I will do so.
Maureen O'Sullivan: I thank the Minister for that. An interesting survey is being carried out in Milltown Cemetery in Belfast involving Queen’s University Belfast. I will bring the Minister’s offer to the people who have been asking me about this issue.
I recently read an article about a certain developer who moved a 4,000 year old megalithic burial tomb out of the way of a proposed development. We know that developer’s life has completely changed. Maybe there is a lesson for us in protecting our ancient burial grounds.
Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht:That person was pursued under the National Monuments Act. I will shortly introduce a new Bill which will give further protection to monuments. My Department is working on the Bill at present. So much legislation associated with the troika deal and the financial situation is coming through that this Bill had to be delayed to some extent, but I will introduce it shortly. I am sure Deputy O’Sullivan will want to take a further look at this area when the Bill is debated. If the Deputy can give me more information on what is happening in Milltown Cemetery, especially the work by Queen’s University, I would be very interested in that.
Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht: The term cillín traditionally applies to an area of unconsecrated ground where unbaptised or stillborn children were interred. The origins of the practice are believed to date back to the medieval period. Graves were generally marked by simple, low, upright stones or slabs that usually lacked inscription or other carving.
All known cillíní are listed as children’s burial grounds in the statutory record of monuments and places maintained by my Department in accordance with the requirements of the National Monuments Acts. In all, details of 1,393 cillíní are contained in the record.
Because of their inclusion in the record of monuments and places, cillíní are entitled to statutory protection under section 12 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994. This provision requires any person intending to carry out work at or in relation to a recorded monument to provide the Minister with two months advance notice of the proposal. This allows my Department time to consider how the work may proceed in tandem with the protection of the particular monument. Failure to comply with the requirement to notify the Minister is an offence under the Acts and is subject to significant penalties.
I am advised that no proposals likely to impact on cillíní have been notified to my Department in recent years.
Maureen O'Sullivan: This is a sensitive area. We are not talking about stillborn babies only. Some of those buried in unconsecrated ground were victims of infanticide or suicide or people who died in mental institutions or industrial schools. Quite a number of people were, for various reasons, not buried in consecrated ground.
I accept what the Minister says about the sites that are included in the list of monuments, but there are far more in the country. In many places, there is a reliance on local knowledge and folklore to protect them. In many cases there are no living relatives but in a significant number of cases there are.
Could the matter of unmarked graves be pursued with the archaeology departments in our universities? There is a danger that they could be lost with development.
I welcome what Deputy O’Sullivan has said. If the Deputy has any information about unconsecrated burial grounds or locations where investigations should be carried out, I ask her to bring that to my attention so that I can arrange for her to meet the National Parks and Wildlife Service and senior officials in my Department on this very sensitive issue whenever she would like that opportunity. If she wishes to pursue this matter I will help her in every way possible. I agree that this is a very sensitive issue.
In our own neighbourhoods we have heard of where there were graveyards in the past where infants were buried in various circumstances. We may not have documentary evidence to prove this but some of this information may be accurate. If I can assist the Deputy in pursuing this matter, I will do so.
Maureen O'Sullivan: I thank the Minister for that. An interesting survey is being carried out in Milltown Cemetery in Belfast involving Queen’s University Belfast. I will bring the Minister’s offer to the people who have been asking me about this issue.
I recently read an article about a certain developer who moved a 4,000 year old megalithic burial tomb out of the way of a proposed development. We know that developer’s life has completely changed. Maybe there is a lesson for us in protecting our ancient burial grounds.
Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht:That person was pursued under the National Monuments Act. I will shortly introduce a new Bill which will give further protection to monuments. My Department is working on the Bill at present. So much legislation associated with the troika deal and the financial situation is coming through that this Bill had to be delayed to some extent, but I will introduce it shortly. I am sure Deputy O’Sullivan will want to take a further look at this area when the Bill is debated. If the Deputy can give me more information on what is happening in Milltown Cemetery, especially the work by Queen’s University, I would be very interested in that.
22 November Commercial Rates: Motion
Click to hear Maureen speak
There are two aspects to this debate. One relates to small businesses paying this commercial rates and their viability. The other is the way local authorities depend on commercial rates for revenue.Small and medium size businesses are in a very difficult situation and many cannot afford the current commercial rates during this economic downturn. If they cannot afford the rates they will have no option but to close, with disastrous consequences for their employees and for the areas where they are in business. It must be demoralising for areas, whether in city communities or in small towns and villages, to see businesses boarded up.
Every job lost costs the State in the region of €20,000, and we know the unemployment statistics. Apart from the commercial rates, which must be addressed, the main issues for small and medium size businesses are upward only rent reviews, lower demand for their products and services, late payments - and the ISME credit watch survey tells us that small businesses wait an average of 72 days for payment - access to credit for start-up and expanding businesses and cost increases of at least 5% for insurance, energy, transport and waste. We need to support businesses providing employment. That means speeding up the process of the national evaluation of commercial property begun in 2005.
What is the point of exorbitant or very high rates which businesses cannot pay and which force them out of business so that no rates are paid? We saw an example of this in the closure of the Light House cinema in Smithfield, Dublin. Can we not do what the hotels and airlines have done, which is to reduce prices and fill beds and seats, and apply that strategy to the businesses so they can continue? The system must take account of ability to pay and current economic circumstances, in good times and bad. In the good times a business should pay more and in the bad times it should pay less.
With other public representatives, I attended a briefing given by the Restaurants Association of Ireland today. I know that during the Celtic tiger years, eating out was far more expensive than the food warranted. Nevertheless, the association says Ireland is the most expensive country in which to run a restaurant business. The association’s comment, rightly or wrongly, was that local authorities are treating restaurants like ATM machines. Its press release made a number of points. Creating a fat tax will cost jobs, making employers pay four weeks sick leave will also cost jobs and increasing excise duty will drive consumers to Northern Ireland, and so cost jobs.
I am all for just and equitable commercial rates being paid by businesses. The idea of hypermarkets is being mooted. They may bring in additional income from high commercial rates but this could have a devastating effect on employment in small and medium size businesses. Local authorities provide vital services and need adequate resources to do so. Businesses should contribute fairly. Local authorities have provided supports for enterprise and small businesses, as the Government amendment says. Some local government reform has taken place but there is much more to do. Property taxes, water charges and septic tank charges are coming at a time when people cannot afford to pay any more.
Although I represent Dublin city I have a close affinity with some of the islands, particularly Oileán Cléire. Some county councils are imposing further charges and levies on islanders. We know costs for communities living on islands are higher than for those on the mainland.
Every job lost costs the State in the region of €20,000, and we know the unemployment statistics. Apart from the commercial rates, which must be addressed, the main issues for small and medium size businesses are upward only rent reviews, lower demand for their products and services, late payments - and the ISME credit watch survey tells us that small businesses wait an average of 72 days for payment - access to credit for start-up and expanding businesses and cost increases of at least 5% for insurance, energy, transport and waste. We need to support businesses providing employment. That means speeding up the process of the national evaluation of commercial property begun in 2005.
What is the point of exorbitant or very high rates which businesses cannot pay and which force them out of business so that no rates are paid? We saw an example of this in the closure of the Light House cinema in Smithfield, Dublin. Can we not do what the hotels and airlines have done, which is to reduce prices and fill beds and seats, and apply that strategy to the businesses so they can continue? The system must take account of ability to pay and current economic circumstances, in good times and bad. In the good times a business should pay more and in the bad times it should pay less.
With other public representatives, I attended a briefing given by the Restaurants Association of Ireland today. I know that during the Celtic tiger years, eating out was far more expensive than the food warranted. Nevertheless, the association says Ireland is the most expensive country in which to run a restaurant business. The association’s comment, rightly or wrongly, was that local authorities are treating restaurants like ATM machines. Its press release made a number of points. Creating a fat tax will cost jobs, making employers pay four weeks sick leave will also cost jobs and increasing excise duty will drive consumers to Northern Ireland, and so cost jobs.
I am all for just and equitable commercial rates being paid by businesses. The idea of hypermarkets is being mooted. They may bring in additional income from high commercial rates but this could have a devastating effect on employment in small and medium size businesses. Local authorities provide vital services and need adequate resources to do so. Businesses should contribute fairly. Local authorities have provided supports for enterprise and small businesses, as the Government amendment says. Some local government reform has taken place but there is much more to do. Property taxes, water charges and septic tank charges are coming at a time when people cannot afford to pay any more.
Although I represent Dublin city I have a close affinity with some of the islands, particularly Oileán Cléire. Some county councils are imposing further charges and levies on islanders. We know costs for communities living on islands are higher than for those on the mainland.
17 Nov Review of Serious Incidents including Deaths of Children in Care
Click to hear Maureen speak
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I have to take issue with Deputy Buttimer as one of those who opposed the referendum on Oireachtas inquiries. We were not sniping but had grave and serious reservations about the effect Oireachtas inquiries could have on a person’s good name. We just wanted to express those.
Deputy Jerry Buttimer: My comment was not directed at Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I know but that was the context in which it happened.
Like Deputy Jonathan O’Brien, being informed this morning that we were to debate an actual report rather than child protection generally was disappointing as I would have liked to have had more time to prepare.
The report investigated the deaths of children in care, including deaths by natural causes, the deaths of children known to the child protection system, the deaths of young adults up to 21 years of age who were in the care of the Health Service Executive prior to their 18th birthday, in cases where confirmed or suspected abuse involved the death of or a serious injury to a child known to the HSE and serious incidents involving a child in care or known to the child protection service. This list is an appalling vista. Each of these deaths is regrettable and had to be investigated.
I am also conscious of those who died while in the care of the State in residential institutions and the Magdalene laundries. It is important to identify weaknesses in policy and practice. Vulnerable young people can become involved with a variety of services. All too often, because there are so many services involved, these young people can get lost between them all. It is important there is one key worker in charge of all of this to ensure no child falls through the gaps.
It is important the State acknowledges blame if it has contributed to any of the cases in question. The Minister claimed child protection is complex and challenging. I do not entirely agree with this. It would not be complex if the child were put at the centre of the care model. I know of the Minister’s commitment to this issue and acknowledge the work she has already done with the interdepartmental group, the publication of the Children First guidelines and the child protection welfare practice handbook and the meetings she has held with various agencies and groups. Her background in social work helps in this.
The line “That changed some childish day to tragedy” in W. B. Yeats’s “Among School Children” always struck me because no child’s day should end up in tragedy. It is up to parents, society, schools and those social workers, probation officers, gardaí and youth workers, who through their work come in contact with children, to ensure children’s rights are respected. The Government and Parliament also have a role to play in this regard and it is vital children’s rights are inserted into the Constitution. That is all paperwork as it were, however.
Childhood should be a time of happiness and joy, a time of exploring and learning about boundaries. It should be a time when the adults in the lives of children offer support and guidance. All of this must contribute to the child’s sense of self-esteem and self worth. If we get this right, the child will be able to move into adulthood, taking his or her place in society. It is most unfortunate this does not happen for significant numbers of children.
Many teachers, when they encounter a child for the first time in junior infants, have a good idea what road the child will take because of family and socio-economic background. Every child must have the opportunity to fulfil his or her potential. To achieve this, areas such as housing, schools, play and leisure activities must be involved. In the home, a child must feel protected and safe. We know this is not the case for all children. The State must play a more proactive role in providing safeguards and supports in such cases.
I know many dedicated social workers committed to the young people in their care. However, there are serious gaps in the service. Social workers need to be involved more in preventive strategies with families, in improving parental capacity and so reduce the risk of harm or abuse to children. It is vital early intervention is developed to avoid cases escalating and becoming a crisis management. With over 6,000 children in care, the biggest scandal is the lack of out-of-hours social services.
Due to these gaps, more children and teenagers are ending up in the juvenile justice system. Serious concerns have been expressed that boys of 16 and 17 years of age are still detained in St. Patrick’s Institution, an environment not suitable to their needs as pointed out by the Irish Penal Reform Trust and many of the chaplains working in the Prison Service. At a briefing yesterday, the Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan, said the very fact that children were being incarcerated in a prison is a serious contravention of international human rights standards. If resources were put into prevention, no child would end up in prison. The Inspector of Prisons noted in 2009 that 25% of the juvenile population in St. Patrick’s requested to be held in protection, fearing for their own safety. While 16 and 17 year olds do not consider themselves as children, they still are legally. Those detained in St. Patrick’s should not be detained there. We know the type of skills they will learn in prison which will only have them back there in the future. We also know the significant number of people from certain areas in Dublin, some of which I represent, who are in and out of prison.
Schooling is not a level playing field. Schooling and education should further and enhance equality, not contribute to inequality. As both a teacher and through my involvement in voluntary youth work since the 1960s, I know how preventive measures can work. Getting children and young people into clubs, sporting organisations, art, music and drama, much of which is organised by volunteers, is very important to their development. The young people’s facilities and services fund, which is now based in the Minister’s Department, is a great initiative introduced ten years ago, making moneys available for capital projects, services and programmes. I chaired the group for north inner city Dublin. It was aimed at those most at risk of drug abuse and drug misuse. It provided many examples of great engagement with young people giving them opportunities to develop their talents and have fun while ensuring they were not involved in anti-social behaviour. In recent budgets, funding for many of these groups and clubs has been cut, leaving many in a precarious position, however. These are the groups working directly with young people to keep them out of the system this very report investigated. We have Garda diversion projects, the juvenile liaison officer system, case management of those coming to the attention of the law, and the Breaking the Cycle programmes. There is much good work going on directly with young people, and it is making a difference.
There are groups of young people who are particularly vulnerable, and the homeless are one of those groups. Serious child protection issues arise and there is a need for the youth homelessness strategy to be replaced. I suggest asking somebody like Peter McVerry for his input in that particular area.
Regarding migrant children, in Dublin’s inner city there are very good youth projects working with unaccompanied minors but we have a complex immigration-residency-asylum system and we need a more efficient system of citizenship applications within a reasonable time.
I want to highlight again those children who have gone missing, some of them from State care.
On the removal of separated children to direct provision centres once they turn 18, I had some examples of that in a particular school. The young migrant children had completed fifth year but because they turned 18 they were moved out of the school and out of Dublin. I met the officials but they were not prepared to look at the individual. It was a system but no system will work unless we take the individual into account.
Regarding Traveller children, I know there are difficulties in this area because my own school was involved with Traveller education and there are no easy answers on that issue.
In terms of young people who turn to drugs and alcohol misuse and become addicted, on Monday night I attended one of the inner city projects, Soilse, where young men and women, some teenagers and some slightly older, were being awarded certificates because they had come through detox, recovery, rehabilitation and residential group work. Every one of those young people was in a positive place because the project was there to support them. The money for that project is saving the State far more than if those young people had continued on the addiction road. What struck me about them is that all of them wanted to give something back, and they wanted to do that with other young people.
We discussed previously the missing children hotline. We are one of the countries in Europe which has not put that in place. We know that the first 24 hours are crucial to safely recovering missing children and having a common helpline in member states of the European Union would speed up that vital response.
Regarding young people suffering homophobic bullying, we have a great organisation in Dublin Central called BeLonG To which is doing tremendous work with gay, lesbian and transgender young people.
The media coverage of young people was alluded to earlier. Hallowe’en is a problematic time for young people. Where I live in East Wall we had a terrific programme and one of the events was a parade which involved more than 800 people walking through the streets on Hallowe’en night. The Garda referred to the fact that there was no trouble at the parade but the media, most inappropriately, insisted on carrying stories involving the area which gave a completely different impression. There was no coverage of the positive events that went on organised by young people with the youth leaders for young people.
This morning we had a group in for the cross-party mental health group, Unilink, organised by Deputy Simon Harris. That is a group of people in third level working with vulnerable students who they want to retain in the system, and we were all impressed by the work they were doing. It was to do with the way they saw an issue. They did not wait for the State to do anything but got involved themselves. There are many examples of that going on because sometimes the State gets caught up in the bureaucracy and the people get lost in that.
We talk about our assets, money, economics etc. but our most valuable asset is our children and they must be protected.
Deputy Jerry Buttimer: My comment was not directed at Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I know but that was the context in which it happened.
Like Deputy Jonathan O’Brien, being informed this morning that we were to debate an actual report rather than child protection generally was disappointing as I would have liked to have had more time to prepare.
The report investigated the deaths of children in care, including deaths by natural causes, the deaths of children known to the child protection system, the deaths of young adults up to 21 years of age who were in the care of the Health Service Executive prior to their 18th birthday, in cases where confirmed or suspected abuse involved the death of or a serious injury to a child known to the HSE and serious incidents involving a child in care or known to the child protection service. This list is an appalling vista. Each of these deaths is regrettable and had to be investigated.
I am also conscious of those who died while in the care of the State in residential institutions and the Magdalene laundries. It is important to identify weaknesses in policy and practice. Vulnerable young people can become involved with a variety of services. All too often, because there are so many services involved, these young people can get lost between them all. It is important there is one key worker in charge of all of this to ensure no child falls through the gaps.
It is important the State acknowledges blame if it has contributed to any of the cases in question. The Minister claimed child protection is complex and challenging. I do not entirely agree with this. It would not be complex if the child were put at the centre of the care model. I know of the Minister’s commitment to this issue and acknowledge the work she has already done with the interdepartmental group, the publication of the Children First guidelines and the child protection welfare practice handbook and the meetings she has held with various agencies and groups. Her background in social work helps in this.
The line “That changed some childish day to tragedy” in W. B. Yeats’s “Among School Children” always struck me because no child’s day should end up in tragedy. It is up to parents, society, schools and those social workers, probation officers, gardaí and youth workers, who through their work come in contact with children, to ensure children’s rights are respected. The Government and Parliament also have a role to play in this regard and it is vital children’s rights are inserted into the Constitution. That is all paperwork as it were, however.
Childhood should be a time of happiness and joy, a time of exploring and learning about boundaries. It should be a time when the adults in the lives of children offer support and guidance. All of this must contribute to the child’s sense of self-esteem and self worth. If we get this right, the child will be able to move into adulthood, taking his or her place in society. It is most unfortunate this does not happen for significant numbers of children.
Many teachers, when they encounter a child for the first time in junior infants, have a good idea what road the child will take because of family and socio-economic background. Every child must have the opportunity to fulfil his or her potential. To achieve this, areas such as housing, schools, play and leisure activities must be involved. In the home, a child must feel protected and safe. We know this is not the case for all children. The State must play a more proactive role in providing safeguards and supports in such cases.
I know many dedicated social workers committed to the young people in their care. However, there are serious gaps in the service. Social workers need to be involved more in preventive strategies with families, in improving parental capacity and so reduce the risk of harm or abuse to children. It is vital early intervention is developed to avoid cases escalating and becoming a crisis management. With over 6,000 children in care, the biggest scandal is the lack of out-of-hours social services.
Due to these gaps, more children and teenagers are ending up in the juvenile justice system. Serious concerns have been expressed that boys of 16 and 17 years of age are still detained in St. Patrick’s Institution, an environment not suitable to their needs as pointed out by the Irish Penal Reform Trust and many of the chaplains working in the Prison Service. At a briefing yesterday, the Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan, said the very fact that children were being incarcerated in a prison is a serious contravention of international human rights standards. If resources were put into prevention, no child would end up in prison. The Inspector of Prisons noted in 2009 that 25% of the juvenile population in St. Patrick’s requested to be held in protection, fearing for their own safety. While 16 and 17 year olds do not consider themselves as children, they still are legally. Those detained in St. Patrick’s should not be detained there. We know the type of skills they will learn in prison which will only have them back there in the future. We also know the significant number of people from certain areas in Dublin, some of which I represent, who are in and out of prison.
Schooling is not a level playing field. Schooling and education should further and enhance equality, not contribute to inequality. As both a teacher and through my involvement in voluntary youth work since the 1960s, I know how preventive measures can work. Getting children and young people into clubs, sporting organisations, art, music and drama, much of which is organised by volunteers, is very important to their development. The young people’s facilities and services fund, which is now based in the Minister’s Department, is a great initiative introduced ten years ago, making moneys available for capital projects, services and programmes. I chaired the group for north inner city Dublin. It was aimed at those most at risk of drug abuse and drug misuse. It provided many examples of great engagement with young people giving them opportunities to develop their talents and have fun while ensuring they were not involved in anti-social behaviour. In recent budgets, funding for many of these groups and clubs has been cut, leaving many in a precarious position, however. These are the groups working directly with young people to keep them out of the system this very report investigated. We have Garda diversion projects, the juvenile liaison officer system, case management of those coming to the attention of the law, and the Breaking the Cycle programmes. There is much good work going on directly with young people, and it is making a difference.
There are groups of young people who are particularly vulnerable, and the homeless are one of those groups. Serious child protection issues arise and there is a need for the youth homelessness strategy to be replaced. I suggest asking somebody like Peter McVerry for his input in that particular area.
Regarding migrant children, in Dublin’s inner city there are very good youth projects working with unaccompanied minors but we have a complex immigration-residency-asylum system and we need a more efficient system of citizenship applications within a reasonable time.
I want to highlight again those children who have gone missing, some of them from State care.
On the removal of separated children to direct provision centres once they turn 18, I had some examples of that in a particular school. The young migrant children had completed fifth year but because they turned 18 they were moved out of the school and out of Dublin. I met the officials but they were not prepared to look at the individual. It was a system but no system will work unless we take the individual into account.
Regarding Traveller children, I know there are difficulties in this area because my own school was involved with Traveller education and there are no easy answers on that issue.
In terms of young people who turn to drugs and alcohol misuse and become addicted, on Monday night I attended one of the inner city projects, Soilse, where young men and women, some teenagers and some slightly older, were being awarded certificates because they had come through detox, recovery, rehabilitation and residential group work. Every one of those young people was in a positive place because the project was there to support them. The money for that project is saving the State far more than if those young people had continued on the addiction road. What struck me about them is that all of them wanted to give something back, and they wanted to do that with other young people.
We discussed previously the missing children hotline. We are one of the countries in Europe which has not put that in place. We know that the first 24 hours are crucial to safely recovering missing children and having a common helpline in member states of the European Union would speed up that vital response.
Regarding young people suffering homophobic bullying, we have a great organisation in Dublin Central called BeLonG To which is doing tremendous work with gay, lesbian and transgender young people.
The media coverage of young people was alluded to earlier. Hallowe’en is a problematic time for young people. Where I live in East Wall we had a terrific programme and one of the events was a parade which involved more than 800 people walking through the streets on Hallowe’en night. The Garda referred to the fact that there was no trouble at the parade but the media, most inappropriately, insisted on carrying stories involving the area which gave a completely different impression. There was no coverage of the positive events that went on organised by young people with the youth leaders for young people.
This morning we had a group in for the cross-party mental health group, Unilink, organised by Deputy Simon Harris. That is a group of people in third level working with vulnerable students who they want to retain in the system, and we were all impressed by the work they were doing. It was to do with the way they saw an issue. They did not wait for the State to do anything but got involved themselves. There are many examples of that going on because sometimes the State gets caught up in the bureaucracy and the people get lost in that.
We talk about our assets, money, economics etc. but our most valuable asset is our children and they must be protected.
16 November Priority Question State Examinations
Click to hear exchange in full
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Skills the resources he envisages that are needed for his proposed reform of the junior certificate; his views that there is a need for the training of teachers; and the rationale behind his decision regarding history and geography not being compulsory. [35221/11]
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: Teachers will be supported in implementing junior cycle reform through the professional development service for teachers, focusing on the syllabus changes, assessment and school moderation. The assessment and consideration of the resource implications of the proposals have begun. These will, of course, fall to be considered in the normal way by Government in the context of the Estimates and budgetary processes.
I have made no decision on the issue of history and geography being compulsory. These skills are required of all students under the 24 statements of learning recommended by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. Overall, I am in favour of leaving the decisions on what is offered at the discretion of the school - as a teacher, Deputy O’Sullivan might welcome that sentiment - and of students having as broad a range of options to choose from as possible. Curriculum choice is important in motivating students to learn and to remain in school to completion of senior cycle. It is also important to avoid an erosion of the practical subjects. The issue will be taken forward in discussions with the partners in education.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Teachers have always shown they are very receptive to innovation and inventiveness because they have embraced quite a number of changes in syllabi over the years. Education is about creating a well rounded individual who has the transferable skills about which we speak. I am always alarmed when I hear a particular section in society say that education must respond to X. I dislike the idea that education can be corralled into a very narrow framework.
I was delighted by what the Minister said about history and geography. History was one of my subjects and it is a very important one which perhaps should be compulsory along with geography. History is more than just learning facts, which is a very small part of it. It is about examining evidence and looking at bias, distortion and at the media. It is very important that young people learn to look at the media and how they can manipulate particular situations. It is also about creative thinking. Literacy and numeracy both come into subjects such as history and geography and I welcome what the Minister said. I would be delighted if the Minister did not make the decision that they would not be compulsory. Did he have discussions with the History Teachers’ Association of Ireland, the Association of Geography Teachers of Ireland or any of the relevant professors?
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: I do not know why there is such concern in the history and geography teaching communities about a fall-off in the study of their subjects. The take-up in the junior certificate examination this year was 90.2% for history and 91.5% for geography, making them the fifth and fourth most popular subjects respectively. While in the leaving certificate the percentages differ due to a wider range of subject choice, they were ninth and fifth respectively in popularity.
History is far more than just the recitation of facts. The analytical understanding why certain events occurred is a critical competent of the subject and is embedded in some of the skills we want to see emerge in the junior cycle reforms. As we are entering into discussions with the education partners, I would be quite happy to meet with various stakeholders including the two associations of subject teachers to which Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan referred.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: The leaving certificate applied course has been successful, part of which was due to the resources that went into it, the support for teachers, assessments and their monitoring. These factors need to be borne in mind if we are going down that road with the junior certificate.
If a reformed junior certificate is introduced in 2014, will it be part of the curriculum training for the next intake of higher diploma in education, HDip, students?
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: The courses offered at the teacher training colleges will go from three to four years while the HDip offered in other education institutions will be extended from a one-year course to a two-year course. The concentration of the extra time and resources will be on pedagogic skills. As the Deputy can testify, and from all the advice I have received, a good teacher is a good deliverer of good outcomes. We must reinforce the good teacher.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: Teachers will be supported in implementing junior cycle reform through the professional development service for teachers, focusing on the syllabus changes, assessment and school moderation. The assessment and consideration of the resource implications of the proposals have begun. These will, of course, fall to be considered in the normal way by Government in the context of the Estimates and budgetary processes.
I have made no decision on the issue of history and geography being compulsory. These skills are required of all students under the 24 statements of learning recommended by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. Overall, I am in favour of leaving the decisions on what is offered at the discretion of the school - as a teacher, Deputy O’Sullivan might welcome that sentiment - and of students having as broad a range of options to choose from as possible. Curriculum choice is important in motivating students to learn and to remain in school to completion of senior cycle. It is also important to avoid an erosion of the practical subjects. The issue will be taken forward in discussions with the partners in education.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: Teachers have always shown they are very receptive to innovation and inventiveness because they have embraced quite a number of changes in syllabi over the years. Education is about creating a well rounded individual who has the transferable skills about which we speak. I am always alarmed when I hear a particular section in society say that education must respond to X. I dislike the idea that education can be corralled into a very narrow framework.
I was delighted by what the Minister said about history and geography. History was one of my subjects and it is a very important one which perhaps should be compulsory along with geography. History is more than just learning facts, which is a very small part of it. It is about examining evidence and looking at bias, distortion and at the media. It is very important that young people learn to look at the media and how they can manipulate particular situations. It is also about creative thinking. Literacy and numeracy both come into subjects such as history and geography and I welcome what the Minister said. I would be delighted if the Minister did not make the decision that they would not be compulsory. Did he have discussions with the History Teachers’ Association of Ireland, the Association of Geography Teachers of Ireland or any of the relevant professors?
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: I do not know why there is such concern in the history and geography teaching communities about a fall-off in the study of their subjects. The take-up in the junior certificate examination this year was 90.2% for history and 91.5% for geography, making them the fifth and fourth most popular subjects respectively. While in the leaving certificate the percentages differ due to a wider range of subject choice, they were ninth and fifth respectively in popularity.
History is far more than just the recitation of facts. The analytical understanding why certain events occurred is a critical competent of the subject and is embedded in some of the skills we want to see emerge in the junior cycle reforms. As we are entering into discussions with the education partners, I would be quite happy to meet with various stakeholders including the two associations of subject teachers to which Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan referred.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: The leaving certificate applied course has been successful, part of which was due to the resources that went into it, the support for teachers, assessments and their monitoring. These factors need to be borne in mind if we are going down that road with the junior certificate.
If a reformed junior certificate is introduced in 2014, will it be part of the curriculum training for the next intake of higher diploma in education, HDip, students?
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: The courses offered at the teacher training colleges will go from three to four years while the HDip offered in other education institutions will be extended from a one-year course to a two-year course. The concentration of the extra time and resources will be on pedagogic skills. As the Deputy can testify, and from all the advice I have received, a good teacher is a good deliverer of good outcomes. We must reinforce the good teacher.
15 November Mental Health Services Private Members' Motion (Click here to read in full)
Click to hear Maureen speak to the motion
I would like to share time with Deputies Seamus Healy, Thomas Pringle and Stephen Donnelly.
Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall):Is that agreed? Agreed.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan:The first question I would like to ask is what is mental health? Many people consider it is a question of somebody with a mental illness. We know that one in four people will develop a mental issue at some point in their lives. I think mental health has to do with all aspects of our lives. Sometimes it is more important than our physical health. We know what we should do to look after our physical health, even if we do not always do it. We know why we should take exercise, what kind of food we should eat and how much sleep we should get. We know to avoid alcohol, cigarettes and drugs. Do we pay the same attention to our mental health as we pay to our physical health in order to ensure personal optimal mental health? I believe both are linked. Things that help our physical health will also help our mental health.
More strategies and programmes in areas like meditation, yoga and mindfulness are needed to ensure we look after our mental health. We need to look at the importance of self-esteem, real communication, positive relationships and relaxation. It is possible for someone who is physically unwell to be well mentally. Some good articles in a recent health supplement in The Irish Times drew attention to various aspects of mental health. We need more of that. I would like to emphasise that we should not create an illness out of normal distress. We all suffer bereavement. Grief is natural. There are stages in the grieving process we have to go through. There has been an alarming increase in the use of anti-depressants and medication by people in such circumstances. We should allow the grieving process to take its natural course and acknowledge the need for space and time of the person who is grieving. He or she should be listened to in an empathic way.
Children can be bold. They have high energy. They can present with challenging behaviour. They will not do as they are told. Some parents have difficulties with them. We can be very quick to put a label on such children and prescribe drugs to them. Naturally, there are times when we all suffer from depression. We use the word “depression”, which comes in various degrees, when we feel down. There is a propensity for anti-depressants to be used in such circumstances. I welcome the guidelines on the management of depression in primary care that have been drawn up by the College of Psychiatry of Ireland and the Irish College of General Practitioners. There are various procedures for dealing with mild depression, and moderate to severe depression. The colleges use terms like “watchful waiting”, “psychological intervention”, “social support” and “exercise programme”. Depression and anxiety are common mental illnesses in older people. The independent monitoring group has recognised the lack of progress in the psychiatry of old age.
Depression needs to be treated. There are various treatments. I do not want us to drift further into the “pill for every ill” syndrome. The 2010 medication report of the mental health services referred to the overuse of medication in inpatient services. It reported that 57% of inpatients are being prescribed benzodiazepines. In one psychiatric unit, benzodiazepines were prescribed to 97% of patients. The question of community care arises in this context. Too many Victorian-era psychiatric hospitals are still open. We cannot close them if that means leaving their clients exposed. We need multidisciplinary care teams in the community, as set out in A Vision for Change. Just 20% of community mental health teams have the full range of disciplines that are recommended in A Vision for Change. Just 12% of teams have them on a full-time basis. Staffing is another major issue. We do not have required number of psychologists, occupational therapists or social workers.
According to the Mental Health Commission - we knew it anyway - recessions are times of high stress. Unemployment, debt and poverty have a significant impact on mental health. The chair of the commission has said that “economic difficulty leads Government to postpone necessary investment in mental health services in recessionary times”. The irony is that at a time of increasing stress and strain, there are fewer resources. The Celtic tiger contributed to mental ill health. Our President spoke out on this issue on Friday when he referred to “individualism” that is closer to an “egotism based on purely material considerations”.
Mental health is the Cinderella of the health service. It is not the Government’s fault that it does not get the proportion of funding it needs - it is the fault of every Government since the foundation of the State. The Cinderella within that Cinderella is the area of intellectual disability. The motion before the House acknowledges and welcomes the positive appointment of executive clinical directors with responsibility for the mental health of people with intellectual disabilities. The gaps are disturbing, however. The motion refers to the approved centre at Stewarts Hospital in that context. I acknowledge the work of St. Michael’s House and other services that are flexible, creative, resourceful and inventive in developing new and cost-effective ways of delivering services and dealing with cuts to date.
The service user has to be at the centre of the recovery process. I support the call for the first clinical encounter to focus on the client. If the client is not in the sort of space to make a decision, which can happen, he or she will be entitled to dignity and respect. There is a need for peer advocacy. Mental health advocates want the forthcoming legislation to ensure that those who could make a decision with the assistance and support of an advocate are given the opportunity to do so before a guardianship is considered as a last resort. There is some good international practice in this regard. I am in favour of the inclusion in the legislation of supported decision-making and independent advocacy. The frameworks that will specify how the systems work will also be a priority.
I could stand up here and say I have cancer, angina, a broken leg, diabetes or arthritis. It would be different and difficult for me to stand up here and say I have had a breakdown, I am an addict, I have an eating disorder, I have trouble with my nerves or I am an alcoholic. We do not say such things. Instead, we hide them. That brings an added pressure. We have to be comfortable in being as open about mental illness as we are about physical illness. There are examples of absolutely horrible expressions that are used to describe those with mental health issues. Such labels have to be challenged.
The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and I are both familiar with Mr. John McCarthy, who is a proud member of the Mad Pride community. He established Mad Pride Ireland. He has spoken about the normality of madness. He deplores the way society has been allowed to think the mad community is dangerous and to be feared. For Mr. McCarthy and others, madness is an everyday occurrence that affects everyone and can be dealt with in an open and loving way with no fear. Mr. McCarthy and others are particularly critical of the “one size fits all” approach to treatment. I believe the pharmaceutical industry needs strict ethical and moral boundaries. I acknowledge those people who have spoken out about the high use of seclusion and restraint, particularly those who were over-medicated and forgotten about in institutions. It is important to note that the Mental Health Commission has reported on the uneven use of seclusion and restraint across the country.
I would like to speak about this country’s suicide statistics. It is difficult to get accurate statistics, for obvious reasons. Of the 486 people who are known to have died by suicide in 2010, some 386 were men and 100 were women. This 4:1 ratio is replicated in other parts of the world. It comes back to the question of stereotyping. The ideal man is supposed to be a strong individual who does not show his vulnerability and is able to solve his own problems. It is not seen as masculine or macho to share problems or discuss feelings. Male suicide has to be targeted. A Scottish campaign, Choose Life, which was run with the Scottish Football Association, reduced the male suicide rate by 15%. The slogan used in a campaign involving US war veterans, among whom asking for help is not considered to be very manly, is “it takes the courage and strength of a warrior to ask for help”.
The cross-party group on mental health in the Oireachtas has introduced SafeTalk training for staff. I acknowledge the ASIST training that takes place. We have to delete paragraph (b) of section 59 of the Mental Health Act 2001. Under the current mental health laws, ECT can be used on a patient who is unwilling or unable to give consent as long as it is approved by two consultant psychiatrists. There are grave reservations about this because of the diverse evidence on it. It is used as a method of torture in certain countries.
We know about the disproportionate loss of staff in the mental health services. In our motion, we mention the need to continue the current nursing training, with particular skills being taught to those working with intellectual disability and to psychiatric nurses. We are aware that funding decreased from 13% of the health budget in 1986 to 5% of the budget in 2010. The target in A Vision for Change is 8.4%. The assistant director general of the World Health Organisation has made the point that Governments tend to spend most of their scarce mental health resources on long-term care in psychiatric hospitals. That is a worldwide phenomenon. This money needs to be invested at primary care level to reach more people and address the problems at an earlier stage. Prevention is vital and it goes back to more focus on, and more awareness of, our mental health. The home, school and society have a role to play. We must celebrate difference and not be afraid of it.
We must acknowledge the work of groups like the Samaritans, Bodywhys, Aware, Jigsaw, AA, NA and Headstrong. The Departments must also take on A Vision for Change, whether the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, the Department of Social Protection, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in regard to housing issues, the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht or the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport.
People in prison, people who are homeless, people with addiction issues and refugees and asylum seekers all have very particular mental health issues. I was at something earlier at which the point was made that as the numbers in our psychiatric institutions go down, the numbers in our prisons go up. That is pretty frightening.
I acknowledge the amendment. I find Private Members’ business frustrating because we are all on the same wavelength on this issue and I acknowledge what is in the amendment and the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and of the former Minister of State in the previous Government, John Moloney.
If I go into an accident and emergency department with a broken leg or chest pains, I might have to wait a few hours but I will be dealt with. Where do I go if I have a mental health issue? I could be waiting and waiting.
Click to hear Minister of State Kathleen Lynch TD Reply
Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall):Is that agreed? Agreed.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan:The first question I would like to ask is what is mental health? Many people consider it is a question of somebody with a mental illness. We know that one in four people will develop a mental issue at some point in their lives. I think mental health has to do with all aspects of our lives. Sometimes it is more important than our physical health. We know what we should do to look after our physical health, even if we do not always do it. We know why we should take exercise, what kind of food we should eat and how much sleep we should get. We know to avoid alcohol, cigarettes and drugs. Do we pay the same attention to our mental health as we pay to our physical health in order to ensure personal optimal mental health? I believe both are linked. Things that help our physical health will also help our mental health.
More strategies and programmes in areas like meditation, yoga and mindfulness are needed to ensure we look after our mental health. We need to look at the importance of self-esteem, real communication, positive relationships and relaxation. It is possible for someone who is physically unwell to be well mentally. Some good articles in a recent health supplement in The Irish Times drew attention to various aspects of mental health. We need more of that. I would like to emphasise that we should not create an illness out of normal distress. We all suffer bereavement. Grief is natural. There are stages in the grieving process we have to go through. There has been an alarming increase in the use of anti-depressants and medication by people in such circumstances. We should allow the grieving process to take its natural course and acknowledge the need for space and time of the person who is grieving. He or she should be listened to in an empathic way.
Children can be bold. They have high energy. They can present with challenging behaviour. They will not do as they are told. Some parents have difficulties with them. We can be very quick to put a label on such children and prescribe drugs to them. Naturally, there are times when we all suffer from depression. We use the word “depression”, which comes in various degrees, when we feel down. There is a propensity for anti-depressants to be used in such circumstances. I welcome the guidelines on the management of depression in primary care that have been drawn up by the College of Psychiatry of Ireland and the Irish College of General Practitioners. There are various procedures for dealing with mild depression, and moderate to severe depression. The colleges use terms like “watchful waiting”, “psychological intervention”, “social support” and “exercise programme”. Depression and anxiety are common mental illnesses in older people. The independent monitoring group has recognised the lack of progress in the psychiatry of old age.
Depression needs to be treated. There are various treatments. I do not want us to drift further into the “pill for every ill” syndrome. The 2010 medication report of the mental health services referred to the overuse of medication in inpatient services. It reported that 57% of inpatients are being prescribed benzodiazepines. In one psychiatric unit, benzodiazepines were prescribed to 97% of patients. The question of community care arises in this context. Too many Victorian-era psychiatric hospitals are still open. We cannot close them if that means leaving their clients exposed. We need multidisciplinary care teams in the community, as set out in A Vision for Change. Just 20% of community mental health teams have the full range of disciplines that are recommended in A Vision for Change. Just 12% of teams have them on a full-time basis. Staffing is another major issue. We do not have required number of psychologists, occupational therapists or social workers.
According to the Mental Health Commission - we knew it anyway - recessions are times of high stress. Unemployment, debt and poverty have a significant impact on mental health. The chair of the commission has said that “economic difficulty leads Government to postpone necessary investment in mental health services in recessionary times”. The irony is that at a time of increasing stress and strain, there are fewer resources. The Celtic tiger contributed to mental ill health. Our President spoke out on this issue on Friday when he referred to “individualism” that is closer to an “egotism based on purely material considerations”.
Mental health is the Cinderella of the health service. It is not the Government’s fault that it does not get the proportion of funding it needs - it is the fault of every Government since the foundation of the State. The Cinderella within that Cinderella is the area of intellectual disability. The motion before the House acknowledges and welcomes the positive appointment of executive clinical directors with responsibility for the mental health of people with intellectual disabilities. The gaps are disturbing, however. The motion refers to the approved centre at Stewarts Hospital in that context. I acknowledge the work of St. Michael’s House and other services that are flexible, creative, resourceful and inventive in developing new and cost-effective ways of delivering services and dealing with cuts to date.
The service user has to be at the centre of the recovery process. I support the call for the first clinical encounter to focus on the client. If the client is not in the sort of space to make a decision, which can happen, he or she will be entitled to dignity and respect. There is a need for peer advocacy. Mental health advocates want the forthcoming legislation to ensure that those who could make a decision with the assistance and support of an advocate are given the opportunity to do so before a guardianship is considered as a last resort. There is some good international practice in this regard. I am in favour of the inclusion in the legislation of supported decision-making and independent advocacy. The frameworks that will specify how the systems work will also be a priority.
I could stand up here and say I have cancer, angina, a broken leg, diabetes or arthritis. It would be different and difficult for me to stand up here and say I have had a breakdown, I am an addict, I have an eating disorder, I have trouble with my nerves or I am an alcoholic. We do not say such things. Instead, we hide them. That brings an added pressure. We have to be comfortable in being as open about mental illness as we are about physical illness. There are examples of absolutely horrible expressions that are used to describe those with mental health issues. Such labels have to be challenged.
The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and I are both familiar with Mr. John McCarthy, who is a proud member of the Mad Pride community. He established Mad Pride Ireland. He has spoken about the normality of madness. He deplores the way society has been allowed to think the mad community is dangerous and to be feared. For Mr. McCarthy and others, madness is an everyday occurrence that affects everyone and can be dealt with in an open and loving way with no fear. Mr. McCarthy and others are particularly critical of the “one size fits all” approach to treatment. I believe the pharmaceutical industry needs strict ethical and moral boundaries. I acknowledge those people who have spoken out about the high use of seclusion and restraint, particularly those who were over-medicated and forgotten about in institutions. It is important to note that the Mental Health Commission has reported on the uneven use of seclusion and restraint across the country.
I would like to speak about this country’s suicide statistics. It is difficult to get accurate statistics, for obvious reasons. Of the 486 people who are known to have died by suicide in 2010, some 386 were men and 100 were women. This 4:1 ratio is replicated in other parts of the world. It comes back to the question of stereotyping. The ideal man is supposed to be a strong individual who does not show his vulnerability and is able to solve his own problems. It is not seen as masculine or macho to share problems or discuss feelings. Male suicide has to be targeted. A Scottish campaign, Choose Life, which was run with the Scottish Football Association, reduced the male suicide rate by 15%. The slogan used in a campaign involving US war veterans, among whom asking for help is not considered to be very manly, is “it takes the courage and strength of a warrior to ask for help”.
The cross-party group on mental health in the Oireachtas has introduced SafeTalk training for staff. I acknowledge the ASIST training that takes place. We have to delete paragraph (b) of section 59 of the Mental Health Act 2001. Under the current mental health laws, ECT can be used on a patient who is unwilling or unable to give consent as long as it is approved by two consultant psychiatrists. There are grave reservations about this because of the diverse evidence on it. It is used as a method of torture in certain countries.
We know about the disproportionate loss of staff in the mental health services. In our motion, we mention the need to continue the current nursing training, with particular skills being taught to those working with intellectual disability and to psychiatric nurses. We are aware that funding decreased from 13% of the health budget in 1986 to 5% of the budget in 2010. The target in A Vision for Change is 8.4%. The assistant director general of the World Health Organisation has made the point that Governments tend to spend most of their scarce mental health resources on long-term care in psychiatric hospitals. That is a worldwide phenomenon. This money needs to be invested at primary care level to reach more people and address the problems at an earlier stage. Prevention is vital and it goes back to more focus on, and more awareness of, our mental health. The home, school and society have a role to play. We must celebrate difference and not be afraid of it.
We must acknowledge the work of groups like the Samaritans, Bodywhys, Aware, Jigsaw, AA, NA and Headstrong. The Departments must also take on A Vision for Change, whether the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, the Department of Social Protection, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in regard to housing issues, the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht or the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport.
People in prison, people who are homeless, people with addiction issues and refugees and asylum seekers all have very particular mental health issues. I was at something earlier at which the point was made that as the numbers in our psychiatric institutions go down, the numbers in our prisons go up. That is pretty frightening.
I acknowledge the amendment. I find Private Members’ business frustrating because we are all on the same wavelength on this issue and I acknowledge what is in the amendment and the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and of the former Minister of State in the previous Government, John Moloney.
If I go into an accident and emergency department with a broken leg or chest pains, I might have to wait a few hours but I will be dealt with. Where do I go if I have a mental health issue? I could be waiting and waiting.
Click to hear Minister of State Kathleen Lynch TD Reply
10 November Tributes to President Mary McAleese
Click to listen to Tribute in full
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: We are so conscious today of restraints, budgetary requirements, cuts and so on that I know people are questioning if the office of the President is cost effective, of any use, whether it makes a difference and should we be considering its abolition. A viciousness was brought into the recent campaigns for the presidency with which we could have very much done without. We do not need that kind of thing to uncover the truth. On the question of whether the presidency makes a difference, going back to our first President, Douglas Hyde, we can say that each of our presidents, in his or her own different way, has made a major contribution to Irish society.
President McAleese and her family and their residency, Áras an Uachtaráin, are in the constituency of Dublin Central which I represent, so there is an added poignancy to today. We also very much appreciated the fact that she took time to come to the removal of the late Tony Gregory two years ago.
I read the article by the Northern editor in yesterday’s edition of The Irish Times in which he looked at her role in terms of the North and reminded us of the abusive comments she had to put up with in the beginning of her term as President and yet by the time she was finishing her term of office she had won so much respect from so many Unionists in the North, and that is a considerable achievement. The one quality that is very obvious is her perseverance and that she did not give up no matter what was being thrown at her.
She understood the complexity of the North because she came from there. She spoke this morning at an event for the homeless about how she knew what it was like to be homeless. I look at her as a bridge builder and as a person with a great sense of humanity. In that article yesterday, which is wonderful and worth quoting, the northern editor wrote that she felt it was important to say the gentle word and the healing word instead of the bitter world. That sort of legacy is wonderful.
I was at an event this morning with marginalised people launching a drugs programme in the north inner city and I listened to the President on radio. She was talking about where she was, which was at a shelter for homeless men. That, to me, is what she is all about.
I am also struck by the difference between a President like her and royalty. Looking at pictures of her at the time of the Omagh bombing and at other events, she was able to go out and put her arms around people, shake their hands and she had that common, human touch that so many royalty do not have.
She made mistakes and that is wonderful. She made comments and did things that people did not like and that also showed her humanity. To use an inversion of the phrase “behind every great man there is a great woman”, in her case, behind this great woman there was a great man.
I finish with words that were used here on another occasion long before my time by a person who said he had done the State some service. President McAleese has done the State some service.
President McAleese and her family and their residency, Áras an Uachtaráin, are in the constituency of Dublin Central which I represent, so there is an added poignancy to today. We also very much appreciated the fact that she took time to come to the removal of the late Tony Gregory two years ago.
I read the article by the Northern editor in yesterday’s edition of The Irish Times in which he looked at her role in terms of the North and reminded us of the abusive comments she had to put up with in the beginning of her term as President and yet by the time she was finishing her term of office she had won so much respect from so many Unionists in the North, and that is a considerable achievement. The one quality that is very obvious is her perseverance and that she did not give up no matter what was being thrown at her.
She understood the complexity of the North because she came from there. She spoke this morning at an event for the homeless about how she knew what it was like to be homeless. I look at her as a bridge builder and as a person with a great sense of humanity. In that article yesterday, which is wonderful and worth quoting, the northern editor wrote that she felt it was important to say the gentle word and the healing word instead of the bitter world. That sort of legacy is wonderful.
I was at an event this morning with marginalised people launching a drugs programme in the north inner city and I listened to the President on radio. She was talking about where she was, which was at a shelter for homeless men. That, to me, is what she is all about.
I am also struck by the difference between a President like her and royalty. Looking at pictures of her at the time of the Omagh bombing and at other events, she was able to go out and put her arms around people, shake their hands and she had that common, human touch that so many royalty do not have.
She made mistakes and that is wonderful. She made comments and did things that people did not like and that also showed her humanity. To use an inversion of the phrase “behind every great man there is a great woman”, in her case, behind this great woman there was a great man.
I finish with words that were used here on another occasion long before my time by a person who said he had done the State some service. President McAleese has done the State some service.
10 November Overseas Development Aid
Click to hear the exchange hear
Maureen O’Sullivan: asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade if he sees a role for Irish parliamentarians in Ireland and developing countries in the context of Ireland’s efforts to help achieve the Millennium Goals; the position he will take at the upcoming high level forum on Aid Effectiveness in Busan, South Korea; the engagement he has had with Irish aid agencies in the preparation for this summit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [33914/11]
Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The High Level Forum on Aid Effectiveness, to be held in Busan at the end of this month, will be a milestone in the international effort to strengthen the quality of development assistance. The Government will be represented at this major international meeting by a delegation headed by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan. The delegation will include the Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Breen, who will also attend the parliamentary forum at the Busan meeting.
Parliamentarians at home and in developing countries have a critical role to play in oversight and in holding Governments to account for the achievement of clear results from development assistance. Ireland is working to ensure that the outcome document from the meeting includes a firm commitment to strengthen the capacity of parliamentarians in developing countries to fulfil this role. We are also arguing that parliamentarians be included in existing forums on aid effectiveness at national level.
The Government has consulted widely in preparing for the forum. In addition to our discussions with Members of the Oireachtas, we have engaged with the higher education and research institutes and with Irish aid agencies. They have made valuable suggestions which we have taken on board in the ongoing negotiations on the final outcome text.
Ireland’s position in Busan will be to focus on progress in poverty reduction and on the achievement of development results, particularly in fragile states. We are working to ensure that women and girls are more effectively prioritised in development. Other priorities include strengthening the transparency and accountability of development spending, reducing the bureaucracy of aid management and ensuring civil society can play its legitimate role as partners in poverty reduction.
I hope that the forum in Busan will mark a clear decisive move in placing the effectiveness of aid at the heart of development policy to accelerate progress towards achieving the millennium development goals.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: We know there will be so many demands on our budget and we are talking about cuts, but it is only moral and just that we should try to maintain our development aid budget. It is really important that such aid is effective. There is a definite role for Parliament since parliaments are different from governments.
I am glad the Minister is considering the progress being made, but in the draft outcome document the word “oversight” is still not included. We know of countries where the aid has been manipulated by governments and it is really important that it is validated by parliament so that the aid is distributed fairly and justly. The question is: will Ireland take a strong position at EU level before Busan to ensure that the word “oversight” is in the document?
Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The officials of my Department have been actively engaged in the preparations for the Busan meeting over the past 12 months. Final negotiations on the outcome document will take place in Busan. In the meantime, a number of high-level officials from partner countries, donors, emerging economies and civil society are working on the text of the outcome document. Within this group, we are engaging actively with the EU and the Nordic Plus group of like-minded countries to ensure agreed priorities for the document are included in these negotiations. We are placing a particular emphasis on parliamentary scrutiny within the donor countries, for example, we have a robust committee system, and the receiving countries. The countries with which we partner must have developed parliamentary scrutiny systems to ensure the aid is used to its greatest effect.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: That is positive. I acknowledge the work of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, in the Association for European Parliamentarians with Africa, AWEPA. He has done a great deal to ensure the word “oversight” is included. I would hate to see his work undone.
I welcome that Deputy Breen will attend the parliamentary forum. It would be a great boost were the Tánaiste able to ask or encourage the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, to attend as well, as her presence would give credence to our involvement with parliamentarians. Some 50 parliamentarians from the global south will attend, 20 of whom will be brought by AWEPA. Were the Minister of State able to attend, it would be a positive step.
Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, intends to take an active role at the meeting. I will ask her, but her attendance will depend on the schedule of meetings. As the Deputy knows, there are ministerial, governmental and parliamentary schedules at these types of event. Sometimes they overlap. I am sure the Minister of State will endeavour to liaise with Deputy Breen on what is happening and, in so far as she can, attend some of the parliamentary sessions.
Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The High Level Forum on Aid Effectiveness, to be held in Busan at the end of this month, will be a milestone in the international effort to strengthen the quality of development assistance. The Government will be represented at this major international meeting by a delegation headed by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan. The delegation will include the Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Breen, who will also attend the parliamentary forum at the Busan meeting.
Parliamentarians at home and in developing countries have a critical role to play in oversight and in holding Governments to account for the achievement of clear results from development assistance. Ireland is working to ensure that the outcome document from the meeting includes a firm commitment to strengthen the capacity of parliamentarians in developing countries to fulfil this role. We are also arguing that parliamentarians be included in existing forums on aid effectiveness at national level.
The Government has consulted widely in preparing for the forum. In addition to our discussions with Members of the Oireachtas, we have engaged with the higher education and research institutes and with Irish aid agencies. They have made valuable suggestions which we have taken on board in the ongoing negotiations on the final outcome text.
Ireland’s position in Busan will be to focus on progress in poverty reduction and on the achievement of development results, particularly in fragile states. We are working to ensure that women and girls are more effectively prioritised in development. Other priorities include strengthening the transparency and accountability of development spending, reducing the bureaucracy of aid management and ensuring civil society can play its legitimate role as partners in poverty reduction.
I hope that the forum in Busan will mark a clear decisive move in placing the effectiveness of aid at the heart of development policy to accelerate progress towards achieving the millennium development goals.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: We know there will be so many demands on our budget and we are talking about cuts, but it is only moral and just that we should try to maintain our development aid budget. It is really important that such aid is effective. There is a definite role for Parliament since parliaments are different from governments.
I am glad the Minister is considering the progress being made, but in the draft outcome document the word “oversight” is still not included. We know of countries where the aid has been manipulated by governments and it is really important that it is validated by parliament so that the aid is distributed fairly and justly. The question is: will Ireland take a strong position at EU level before Busan to ensure that the word “oversight” is in the document?
Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The officials of my Department have been actively engaged in the preparations for the Busan meeting over the past 12 months. Final negotiations on the outcome document will take place in Busan. In the meantime, a number of high-level officials from partner countries, donors, emerging economies and civil society are working on the text of the outcome document. Within this group, we are engaging actively with the EU and the Nordic Plus group of like-minded countries to ensure agreed priorities for the document are included in these negotiations. We are placing a particular emphasis on parliamentary scrutiny within the donor countries, for example, we have a robust committee system, and the receiving countries. The countries with which we partner must have developed parliamentary scrutiny systems to ensure the aid is used to its greatest effect.
Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: That is positive. I acknowledge the work of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, in the Association for European Parliamentarians with Africa, AWEPA. He has done a great deal to ensure the word “oversight” is included. I would hate to see his work undone.
I welcome that Deputy Breen will attend the parliamentary forum. It would be a great boost were the Tánaiste able to ask or encourage the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, to attend as well, as her presence would give credence to our involvement with parliamentarians. Some 50 parliamentarians from the global south will attend, 20 of whom will be brought by AWEPA. Were the Minister of State able to attend, it would be a positive step.
Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, intends to take an active role at the meeting. I will ask her, but her attendance will depend on the schedule of meetings. As the Deputy knows, there are ministerial, governmental and parliamentary schedules at these types of event. Sometimes they overlap. I am sure the Minister of State will endeavour to liaise with Deputy Breen on what is happening and, in so far as she can, attend some of the parliamentary sessions.
08 November Promissory Notes: Motion
Click to hear Maureen's statement
It is the previous Government’s responsibility that we are in this situation. I am sure we all watched last night’s RTE programme, which laid events out graphically. It reminded me of the expression, “Marry in haste, repent at leisure”. A great deal was done in haste. On what basis were decisions made? They appeared to be based on advice from those who got us into this mess in the first place.
Maybe I am being simplistic, but surely the motivating factor should be to work in the best interests of the Irish people. I do not know how it is in our best interests to pay millions of euro to anonymous, nameless, faceless bondholders and to pay promissory notes. The Government must at least work on renegotiating the bailout’s terms to remove toxic private banking debt. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, has stated his reasons for not renegotiating the troika deal. He mentioned that it could spread panic on the markets, create a contagion effect and increase bond yields, as is happening with Italy, all of which would reduce any chance of returning to normal market borrowing. He stated that he was not interested in confronting the troika and intends to work with the programme, even though his party came to power on a burn-the-bondholders ticket. He stated that the European institutions and serious players had much respect for Ireland and that it would be appropriate to work with them.
Are we any better? We are facing more austerity. If people are finding it increasingly difficult to pay their bills, how can they help with the ethos of spending our way out of a recession?
We seem to be dominated by the big picture of what is occurring in Europe and economic affairs. I spent recent days with the North Inner City Drugs Task Force, the Cabra drugs task force, people with disabilities, senior citizens and people with mental health issues. We cannot lose sight of such people while discussing promissory notes. It would be obscene.
Maybe I am being simplistic, but surely the motivating factor should be to work in the best interests of the Irish people. I do not know how it is in our best interests to pay millions of euro to anonymous, nameless, faceless bondholders and to pay promissory notes. The Government must at least work on renegotiating the bailout’s terms to remove toxic private banking debt. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, has stated his reasons for not renegotiating the troika deal. He mentioned that it could spread panic on the markets, create a contagion effect and increase bond yields, as is happening with Italy, all of which would reduce any chance of returning to normal market borrowing. He stated that he was not interested in confronting the troika and intends to work with the programme, even though his party came to power on a burn-the-bondholders ticket. He stated that the European institutions and serious players had much respect for Ireland and that it would be appropriate to work with them.
Are we any better? We are facing more austerity. If people are finding it increasingly difficult to pay their bills, how can they help with the ethos of spending our way out of a recession?
We seem to be dominated by the big picture of what is occurring in Europe and economic affairs. I spent recent days with the North Inner City Drugs Task Force, the Cabra drugs task force, people with disabilities, senior citizens and people with mental health issues. We cannot lose sight of such people while discussing promissory notes. It would be obscene.
03 November Social Welfare Code
Click to hear Maureen speaking
Social welfare payments are for the most vulnerable and marginalised in society. I would like to prioritise a certain group, those with disabilities, mental health issues and their carers because these groups have enough to deal with in their lives and should not have to live in fear that their social welfare payments are under threat. A civilised just society would prioritise these people and assure them that their payments are not and will not be threatened. Another group that should be left in peace is senior citizens. At a recent forum in the docklands area of Dublin, they outlined their concerns as we approach the budget. They have come through difficult times at other stages in our history and they have real concerns about their lives and their living standards. One further group that is suffering is the self-employed whose businesses have folded. They need protection as they are unemployed and many are without sickness benefits. There is a considerable budget for social welfare and it must be used wisely. Efforts must be made to eradicate social welfare fraud which is estimated at 2.4% to 4.4% of total annual welfare expenditure, more than €0.05 billion of which would go a long way towards increasing payments for those in need and even, perhaps, bring back the Christmas bonus which has made a huge difference in certain areas.
Research shows that much social welfare funding is lost through administrative and customer error rather than fraud. In 2009 and 2010, almost 70% of over-payments were due to error. Nobody wants to be unemployed. When this happens, those who are unemployed want to get back working, retraining or avail of the opportunity of further education. The system must help people to do that. I acknowledge the huge workload of the staff in the Department of Social Protection. It involves much administrative procedure and payments that go out to more than 2 million people weekly. There is a need to create a simpler benefit system, a system that meets the needs of the people and not the other way around. The recent flooding incident has shown the need for emergency funding while the urgent payments of €250 have not made an appreciable difference for those who are without insurance because of having been flooded previously.
Austerity measures will not bring about growth. If inflation is likely to rise by 1.5% in the coming year, welfare rates must be adjusted accordingly. Without our social welfare system our poverty rate would be very considerable. I support the point made by Social Justice Ireland that we must limit the impact of budgetary measures on those who can least afford to carry them.
The report of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul which it launched yesterday - its pre-budget submission - the title of which reads “Don’t cut their Lifeline, Poverty Hurts Us All”, says it all.
Research shows that much social welfare funding is lost through administrative and customer error rather than fraud. In 2009 and 2010, almost 70% of over-payments were due to error. Nobody wants to be unemployed. When this happens, those who are unemployed want to get back working, retraining or avail of the opportunity of further education. The system must help people to do that. I acknowledge the huge workload of the staff in the Department of Social Protection. It involves much administrative procedure and payments that go out to more than 2 million people weekly. There is a need to create a simpler benefit system, a system that meets the needs of the people and not the other way around. The recent flooding incident has shown the need for emergency funding while the urgent payments of €250 have not made an appreciable difference for those who are without insurance because of having been flooded previously.
Austerity measures will not bring about growth. If inflation is likely to rise by 1.5% in the coming year, welfare rates must be adjusted accordingly. Without our social welfare system our poverty rate would be very considerable. I support the point made by Social Justice Ireland that we must limit the impact of budgetary measures on those who can least afford to carry them.
The report of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul which it launched yesterday - its pre-budget submission - the title of which reads “Don’t cut their Lifeline, Poverty Hurts Us All”, says it all.
02 November Developments in the Eurozone: Statements
Click to hear Maureen's statement
Although it is a done deal at this stage, I wish to comment on what happened earlier today. To find an analogy one must imagine a sign outside Boylesports or Paddy Power advising customers that they need not worry if their horse, dog or team loses because their bet will pay out regardless. That is what has happened with the decision to pay €750 million to unsecured bondholders at Anglo Irish Bank. We are rewarding speculators who gambled and lost. We seem to feel some moral obligation to pay these people, many of whom bought at a discount and are thus reaping substantial profits. These are nameless, faceless entities; the Taoiseach has acknowledged he does not know who they are. Deputy Joe Higgins made an interesting suggestion about a Greek person; it certainly does not say much for Greek patriotism that all of this money is apparently out of the country. The situation in which we find ourselves is the responsibility of the previous Government and, as such, it is difficult to listen to the objections of Fianna Fáil Members. Theirs was a quick-fix solution which has come back to haunt us. I hope there are no more quick-fix solutions when it comes to selling State assets. The Taoiseach said this morning that paying this money is in the best interests of the people. The Minister said on radio this morning that it is not in Ireland’s interest to impose a cut on bondholders. I am still trying to figure out how it is in Ireland’s best interest to honour a gamble. I am certainly in favour of honouring our obligations, but where is the morality in honouring this particular debt? Why have Anglo Irish Bank’s unsecured bondholders - gamblers and speculators - been deemed a priority?
Was any consideration given to paying a reduced rate, which would have made significant savings for the country? Where is the liability for this country’s taxpayers to pay the bondholders? The latter expect justice, but where is the justice for ordinary Irish people? Saving the euro and keeping the ECB happy seems to be the mantra of Government. That is fine, but where are the concessions for Ireland, which is playing the role of the dutiful child? It does not make sense to pay out €700 million on a failed bond from a failed bank. It is ludicrous to give these people precedence over our citizens.
The new eurozone debt deal seeks to counteract the threat of a European crisis and a double-dip recession and to minimise the risk of contagion to weakened eurozone countries. Sovereign and private investors from countries such as China are being sought. The concerns over the inroads that country is making in certain developing countries does not augur well for any such co-operation. I am not sure that Greece has secured a better deal. The package is extremely severe, with cuts in the public sector, reductions in pay and pensions, new taxes and privatisation of services. There is a need for us to renegotiate our debt repayments. Many believe that if our bailout terms are reduced, Ireland will enjoy higher economic growth. This morning the Minister intimated the possibility of a lower interest rate. Our priority should be this country; we should not get caught in the crossfire between European countries.
Was any consideration given to paying a reduced rate, which would have made significant savings for the country? Where is the liability for this country’s taxpayers to pay the bondholders? The latter expect justice, but where is the justice for ordinary Irish people? Saving the euro and keeping the ECB happy seems to be the mantra of Government. That is fine, but where are the concessions for Ireland, which is playing the role of the dutiful child? It does not make sense to pay out €700 million on a failed bond from a failed bank. It is ludicrous to give these people precedence over our citizens.
The new eurozone debt deal seeks to counteract the threat of a European crisis and a double-dip recession and to minimise the risk of contagion to weakened eurozone countries. Sovereign and private investors from countries such as China are being sought. The concerns over the inroads that country is making in certain developing countries does not augur well for any such co-operation. I am not sure that Greece has secured a better deal. The package is extremely severe, with cuts in the public sector, reductions in pay and pensions, new taxes and privatisation of services. There is a need for us to renegotiate our debt repayments. Many believe that if our bailout terms are reduced, Ireland will enjoy higher economic growth. This morning the Minister intimated the possibility of a lower interest rate. Our priority should be this country; we should not get caught in the crossfire between European countries.
